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1941 Cadillac Series 62 starting problem

Started by georgiepieman, October 29, 2014, 09:44:07 PM

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georgiepieman

Went to take the car on a run yesterday--engaged the starter button--nothing but a "click." Noted that the fuel gauge pointer went from "full" to "empty" when starter button engaged. Ammeter also dropped to "mid-draw" position. Battery fully charged & terminals clean. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance, Grant.
GB
CLC Member: 28423
AACA Member: 008401
RROC Member: 48832

1941 Cadillac Series 62
1958 Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud I
1976 Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow LWB

joeceretti

My car had the fuel gauge and starter act that way twice. Once when my voltage regulator had a problem and the other time the feed wire from the battery had come loose on the light switch.

georgiepieman

Thanks for that info., Joe. I believe the voltage regulator was replaced prior to me purchasing the car just over 12 months ago.  Will take a look at the light switch feed. Rgds. Grant.
GB
CLC Member: 28423
AACA Member: 008401
RROC Member: 48832

1941 Cadillac Series 62
1958 Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud I
1976 Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow LWB

Steve Passmore

Power to the starter solenoid does not come from the light switch or the regulator so I doubt thats the trouble.  Seems its all down to the starter and its solenoid and relay.  I think on your model the relays earth wire may go to the regulator but the click you can hear is the relay working so the coils must be OK but it could be burn points in there.

You can try to isolate certain things. Use a large screwdriver and cross the two large terminals on the back of the starter bypassing the soilenoid. If it spins over then the armature is good and the short list is down to the relay or solenoid but I've never seen a solenoid fail. If it doesn't spin the starter is shot.
My money is on burnt points as I had the same symptoms earlier this year.  Sometimes they burn and can no longer reach each other and have to be cleaned and adjusted.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

joeceretti

#4
I don't have the wiring diagram for the 41 but on the 38 the line for the starter switch connects to the IGN terminal on the voltage regulator. I assume the 41 is different and doesn't have an IGN terminal. Steve is right though, I also had to clean all points and switch connections and contacts to get the car to start reliably.

Gene Beaird

Clean the battery terminals and cable ends and have another go at it.  I bet you have some corrosion issues. 
Gene Beaird,
1968 Calais
1979 Seville
Pearland, Texas
CLC Member No. 29873

Bill Ingler #7799

In addition to what Steve and Joe have said, the use of your headlights can also help you determine the problem. Turn on the headlights and if they are bright then the battery is probably OK. Now with the ignition switch on, push the starter button. If the lights go out, then you have a problem between the battery and the starter. Since you said terminals are clean then I would look at making sure the grounding cable has a clean connection with the frame. If the lights stay bright when you push the starter button and the starter is not cranking, you have an open circuit in either the solenoid switch or the starter itself. As Steve said, you can check the solenoid by shorting out the solenoid circuit. I use a jumper wire with clips to short the solenoid. If the starter now works with shorting the solenoid, the solenoid is the problem. If the starter does not spin with solenoid shorted, then the starter is bad. As you are doing all these tests, keep telling yourself  "Yes, Old cars are fun" and then have another beer.    Bill

georgiepieman

Ok - thanks all! Bill, refrig. stocked with amber bottles;)

All good suggestions & will go through them one-by-one.  What I can say, is that the battery has been checked, & is fully charged. Battery terminals are pristine, & battery connector cable/strap replaced mid-2014. Also noticed momentary ammeter mid-draw position on gauge last time I drove but came back into "charge" range, again. Cheers, Grant
GB
CLC Member: 28423
AACA Member: 008401
RROC Member: 48832

1941 Cadillac Series 62
1958 Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud I
1976 Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow LWB

joeceretti


Steve Passmore

On the 41 the main power starts at the battery and connects directly to the starter, from there it go's to the Ammeter, then on to the ignition switch, on to the start button and back to the starter relay, the relay grounds out back at the regulator which is severed when the engine is running to prevent the starter turning while the engine is running.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

joeceretti

The ammeter returning to centre intermittently sure points to somewhere in that circuit having a loose connection or broken wire. More likely a loose screw or a wire pulled out of a crimp connector.

Doug Houston

Fer Pete's sake,check the battery terminals and the cable clamps that connect to them Corrosion forms between them  and when there's any load on the battery, they just burn through.

You'll want to use one of those tools that cut fresh surfaces on both the battery post and the terminal clamp.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929

47bigcadillac

Sounds like sticky ignition points - had the same issue on my Auburn recently.

Points are the weak link,  if they stick-weld together then the battery discharges to ground very fast, and there won't be enough juice to engage the starter besides a weak click.

That's why you saw the amp draw gauge move.

Check the battery - you will likely notice a significant drop in voltage.

Open-up the distrubutor and have a look at the surface of the points.
R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

Steve Passmore

Quote from: Doug Houston on October 30, 2014, 11:36:16 PM
Fer Pete's sake,check the battery terminals and the cable clamps that connect to them Corrosion forms between them  and when there's any load on the battery, they just burn through.



????   The OP has already stated "Battery terminals are pristine,"
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Fred Pennington 25635

The battery can have a bad connection internally.
The battery will check fine with a volt meter or hydrometer but is unable to sustain the load of the starter.
Best bet, have the battery load tested.

Good luck

Fred Pennington, CLC 25635
1940, LaSalle 5019
1940 LaSalle 5019 parts car
1968 Ford Bronco
1973 Mustang Convertible
2012 Shelby GT500

Doug Houston

Come to think of it, there is a strong possibility that the cast connections in the battery have broken. That would give the symptoms that were originally stated.
38-6019S
38-9039
39-9057B
41-6227D
41-6019SF
41-6229D
41-6267D
56-6267
70-DeV Conv
41-Chev 41-1167
41 Olds 41-3929