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57 Jetaway trouble

Started by 57eldoking, November 08, 2014, 04:27:59 PM

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57eldoking

My Seville's Jetaway started acting up last week. It had been sitting for a couple of weeks and I was taking it for a fall cruise. I noticed the first couple of upshifts to second were more sluggish than normal, it only shifted to second at noticeable higher rpms than normal. During the third acceleration the transmission refused to shift at all. Trying to diagnose the problem further I eventually got it to shift to third when taking it up to 30-40 mph in first, I could not get it to shift to 4th when in third. It appears the front unit is not going into direct drive but stays in reduction. I have also noticed an anomaly compared to the transmission in our Biarritz. During the 1-2 upshift and 2-1 downshifts there's been a noticeable sound that reminds me of a turbo wastegate. It's definitely a sound of air escaping under pressure. I've never heard a similar sound from the Biarritz, the sound is gone now as the transmission doesn't shift into second anymore.

Fluid level is good, oil looks good and does not smell burned. TV rod is adjusted according to the shop manual.

I have a feeling the current problem is related to the wastegate sound I've been hearing. Any Jetaway gurus out there that have some ideas?
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #906
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #1020 http://bit.ly/1kTvFlM
1957 Eldorado Seville  #1777 http://bit.ly/1T3Uo1c
1995 Fleetwood Brougham  http://bit.ly/20YwJV4
2010 SRX Performance

1946 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup
1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon (x2)
1960 Chevy Apache 10 Stepside
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (x2)
1992 Pontiac Trans Sport GT

wbdeford

Sounds to me like issues with the valve body and/or governor.  No 2nd and 4th sounds like the front unit fluid coupling, but that could just be a victim of problems in the valve body or governor.

You could try dropping the pan and removing the valve body to rebuild it.  Costs nothing but fluid and a gasket to do that.
If it's the governor, you have to remove the propeller shaft and the extension housing to get to it.
If the problem is in the fluid coupling, you will have to remove the transmission and take the front of it apart to get to the coupling.

Good news is, it doesn't sound like anything in the rear unit, which would likely mean a full rebuild.

I'm not an expert, so I suggest confirming this with someone more experienced than I am.

Brian
CLC 29073
1958 Sedan de Ville
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

Walter Youshock

Similar thing happened to me.   Turned out to be the front sprag.  When you get to a full stop and the car doesn't move without manually downshifting,  I'm afraid it's going to have to come out and be rebuilt.  After the sprag went?  I barely got the car home
  Even the clutch plates were shot afterwards.

Have it done NOW while there are still guys who know how to rebuild them. 
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

57eldoking

The car moves fine after coming to a stop, do not have to manually downshift to get it to move. I really think the problem is confined to the front unit coupling or actuation of it. I'm really interested in hearing if anyone else have heard the noise I described during 1-2 shift.
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #906
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #1020 http://bit.ly/1kTvFlM
1957 Eldorado Seville  #1777 http://bit.ly/1T3Uo1c
1995 Fleetwood Brougham  http://bit.ly/20YwJV4
2010 SRX Performance

1946 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup
1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon (x2)
1960 Chevy Apache 10 Stepside
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (x2)
1992 Pontiac Trans Sport GT

wbdeford

I don't think it is the front sprag, as that would not affect *when* the transmission shifts and would likely cause either:

1) slippage in 1st, 3rd, and/or reverse
And/or
2) lock up in 2nd and/or 4th.

It seems almost certainly to me to be a hydraulic problem.

Where do you live, 57eldoking?
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

57eldoking

Oslo, Norway. They don't rebuild Jetaways on every street corner over here either... :-*
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #906
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #1020 http://bit.ly/1kTvFlM
1957 Eldorado Seville  #1777 http://bit.ly/1T3Uo1c
1995 Fleetwood Brougham  http://bit.ly/20YwJV4
2010 SRX Performance

1946 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup
1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon (x2)
1960 Chevy Apache 10 Stepside
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (x2)
1992 Pontiac Trans Sport GT

wbdeford

Right.  You sound fairly knowledgeable about them.  A kit costs about $350USD.  It would require some special tools, which I was able to find on ebay for roughly $150 total....so for about $500USD you could do it yourself, if you have the time and patience.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

dplotkin

Your problem is more than likely a badly leaking front coupling cover O ring (spaghetti seal) and/or cracked coupling cover. This is a common failure with the controlled coupling Hydra Matic. The front coupling provides second and forth gears. I suspect what you are hearing (which I wouldn't have guessed is audible) is the internal hemorrhaging of fluid.

The transmission needs to come out. A shop that can rebuild a ZF or Mercedes Benz automatic, both being quite complicated, should have no trouble doing your transmission provided you have the shop manual and a deluxe overhaul kit from FATSCO or North West transmission parts. If it needs hard parts, such as the coupling cover, bell housing, or valve body (I needed all three when my 56 went out) you could have a problem.

John Paluso of Lee Miles Transmission, West Roxbury Massachusetts is the best I know on these. He recently did one for a fellow in Germany who shipped it over.

Dan
56 Fleetwood Sixty Special (Starlight silver over Dawn Grey)
60 Buick Electra six window
60 Chrysler 300 F Coupe
61 Plymouth Savoy Ram Inducted 413 Superstock
62 Pontiac Bonneville Vista
63 Chevy Impala convertable
63 Ford Galaxie XL fastback
65 Corvette convertable 396
68 Chrysler New Yorker

57eldoking

#8
That sounds like a plausible explanation Dan, the 1-2 shift has been more noticeable on this car than the Biarritz for as long as I've had it. It has been especially noticeable during the first few minutes of driving, and in addition I've also had that sound. Just to be clear the sound is not there anymore as the unit does not shift into second.

I think I'm going to take my time and tear into this myself as a winter project. There's a guy here that's been rebuilding transmissions for 40 years that does a good job on these. He did the one in our Biarritz, but even with a buddy discount it will be over $4000 to let him do it. I also count on keeping these cars for the rest of my life (I'm 28) so learning how to work on these Jetaways myself will probably benefit me in the future.
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #906
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #1020 http://bit.ly/1kTvFlM
1957 Eldorado Seville  #1777 http://bit.ly/1T3Uo1c
1995 Fleetwood Brougham  http://bit.ly/20YwJV4
2010 SRX Performance

1946 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup
1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon (x2)
1960 Chevy Apache 10 Stepside
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (x2)
1992 Pontiac Trans Sport GT

wbdeford

Good choice!  It is definitely doable.  I bought a '58 core just because it was available and rebuilt it, just in case my '58 SDV transmission goes out....I haven't had a chance to test it to see if I did it right, but definitely a worthwhile project.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

Roger Zimmermann

I overhauled about 20 such transmissions. The first one went well probably more with luck than with knoledge. The one from a guy in France had no reverse and no second not 4th gear after overhaul led me to go deeper in the subject. Eventually I found the problems...
When your front unit coupling is out, to a test woth the cover from the oil pump like on the picture: with a low air pressure applied in the hole, the cover must jump towards you. If not, take the cover out (be careful not to break it); you will see that both spaghetti are hard as glass.
If you need more hint redoing that transmission, don't hesitate to ask; I may help you.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

57eldoking

Thanks Roger, I may take you up on that offer sometime this winter!
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #906
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #1020 http://bit.ly/1kTvFlM
1957 Eldorado Seville  #1777 http://bit.ly/1T3Uo1c
1995 Fleetwood Brougham  http://bit.ly/20YwJV4
2010 SRX Performance

1946 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup
1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon (x2)
1960 Chevy Apache 10 Stepside
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (x2)
1992 Pontiac Trans Sport GT

Roger Zimmermann

No problem if I can assist you! I'm ordering my transmission parts here: http://www.autotran.us/ but of course, you order where you like...
Before I'm ordering parts, I first take apart the whole transmission. Maybe you will need a different distance washer or something else; if the parts are in the same country, the shipping costs are negligible, but you know yourself it's not the same from the US!
If you buy your parts from another supplier, you have to compare the dimensions from the metal seal which is coming on the oil pump cover: in some kits that metal seal is slightly smaller. The result: no second nor 4th gear when the transmission is warm!
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

57eldoking

#13
Yes I read about that in an earlier thread you had posted about that problem. We also have a spare Jetaway that we had rebuilt during the restoration of the Biarritz. It lasted for 2 seasons here in Norway and all 2451 miles of Route 66. The morning after arriving in Los Angeles we were taking the Biarritz for a cruise in the Beverly Hills. Upon starting it in the hotel parking garage it puked probably 5-6 quarts of transmission fluid through the front seal. Big bummer and no cool Hollywood sign pictures with the car  :'(

We had the transmission resealed by a reputable re-builder in the Chicago area a few weeks later. This time it lasted only 6 weeks and less than 100 miles before the same thing happened again while driving the car to a Concourse d'elegance show in Florida where I was living at the time. Ended up buying a used transmission from a guy that was modernizing the drivetrain in his Biarritz. Got several years out of that unit before it broke down 3 days before departing for the 2010 GE in France. Our friend with the transmission shop I mentioned earlier then pulled, rebuilt and re-installed the transmission in 24 hours to get the car ready for departure. Its been working flawlessly for 4 years and 10k miles plus now. I think it will be a really good idea to know how to work on these transmissions as people who knows how to work on them will only decrease in the future both in Europe and the US!   

Do you have a list of the special tools that are the most critical to have for the rebuild?
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #906
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #1020 http://bit.ly/1kTvFlM
1957 Eldorado Seville  #1777 http://bit.ly/1T3Uo1c
1995 Fleetwood Brougham  http://bit.ly/20YwJV4
2010 SRX Performance

1946 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup
1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon (x2)
1960 Chevy Apache 10 Stepside
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (x2)
1992 Pontiac Trans Sport GT

Roger Zimmermann

I assume that your friend in the transmission shop had no time to open the front unit couling. It's never good to perform repairs in a hurry!
However, if he did it, frankly I'm wondering what is causing the problem you are experiencing now. Anyway, the test with the compressed air will tell the truth.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Walter Youshock

I'm certainly not an expert but I had mine rebuilt 3 times by 3 different shops.   The first time, it shifted poorly and gurgled at idle.  After many years, it wouldn't coast.  Second shop didn't have a clue but, after a partial going over, it was better but still wasn't right.  It started locking up on me.

Third shop, the guy pulled it out and found there were parts missing and one bushing had been installed backwards.   It's finally right now.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

57eldoking

The trans he rebuilt in a hurry is currently in the Biarritz and is still working fine. The problem is with the trans in the Seville which I purchased in March. The car had been sitting for at least 10 years before I started using it this summer. I think it was rebuilt in the late 90s together with the engine but do not know for sure.
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #906
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #1020 http://bit.ly/1kTvFlM
1957 Eldorado Seville  #1777 http://bit.ly/1T3Uo1c
1995 Fleetwood Brougham  http://bit.ly/20YwJV4
2010 SRX Performance

1946 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup
1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon (x2)
1960 Chevy Apache 10 Stepside
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (x2)
1992 Pontiac Trans Sport GT

dplotkin

Guys, the 56 Transmission had a lot of problems. Cadillac was very quiet about it, they were replacing them without necessarily telling the owners. Just about every transmission for the first half year of production failed. One of the biggest problems they had was getting enough bad transmissions back from the dealers quickly enough to rebuild & send back out.

When Cadillac rebuilt them they were updated with improved parts, valve body, front coupling cover, reverse cone & neutral drum. Rebuilding a 56 box that had never before been taken apart shouldn't be done by a novice because of the replacement hard parts likely necessary. if it is an original box, it will need more than frictions, steels & seals.

Dan
56 Fleetwood Sixty Special (Starlight silver over Dawn Grey)
60 Buick Electra six window
60 Chrysler 300 F Coupe
61 Plymouth Savoy Ram Inducted 413 Superstock
62 Pontiac Bonneville Vista
63 Chevy Impala convertable
63 Ford Galaxie XL fastback
65 Corvette convertable 396
68 Chrysler New Yorker

57eldoking

I have a late production 57 so that won't apply to this unit.
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #906
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #1020 http://bit.ly/1kTvFlM
1957 Eldorado Seville  #1777 http://bit.ly/1T3Uo1c
1995 Fleetwood Brougham  http://bit.ly/20YwJV4
2010 SRX Performance

1946 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup
1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon (x2)
1960 Chevy Apache 10 Stepside
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (x2)
1992 Pontiac Trans Sport GT