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1960 tri-power carb set up

Started by 60eldo, November 11, 2014, 10:34:14 PM

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60eldo

     Im having a problem with my tri-pwer cars when car is cold. I start it up with choke closed and it starts right up but black smoke is coming out the tail pipe along with drips of water. Does anyone know someone on this site that is good with tri carbs that I can phone and talk to?  Also,,,,I dont know if all 3 carbs are working when I floor it. How would I know if all carbs are kicking in,,,,thanks
Jon. Klu

76eldo

Your choke may need to be adjusted a bit to get rid of the black smoke if you have black smoke for more than 30 seconds or so from a cold start, but the water drips are normal condensation.

The intake roar and acceleration should be noticeable when you floor it, it sure is on mine.

Tri-carb cars always smell like they are running a bit rich at idle.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

60eldo

   Thanks Brian, once the choke plate opens when hot, the car runs real nice with no smoke at all. But Ill tell you the centre carb seems to be a daily adjustment with choke screw then idle screw. The choke plate must be completly closed or car wont start cold. Its a love hate relationship
Jon. Klu

Coupe Deville

I wonder if a tired or weak choke spring coil would cause the choke plate to open slowly or to late causing the black smoke?

-Gavin
-Gavin Myers CLC Member #27431
"The 59' Cadillac says more about America than a whole trunk full of history books, It was the American Dream"

Scott Halver

I have a 1960 Eldorado.......... and had the engine/carbs rebuilt 2 years ago.   The shop that did the work produced an okay running car but not really great-   even ran it on a dyno.   The front and rear carbs are pulled on by a vacuum pod.   I bought a new vacuum pod for the first re-build.   After going to the "right mechanic", I  found out that you really need a vacuum pod with at least 1/4 inch intake.   The first vacuum pod took about 3 seconds to engage the carbs.   The 2nd vacuum pod takes about 1 second, about the time that it takes for the transmission to downshift.   A lot of guys convert the vacuum linkage to a mechanical linkage............  like a GTO.   I think GM may have put the vacuum control on to give the transmission time to downshift. 

A vacuum switch exists on the center carb that needs to be adjusted to deliver vacuum to the pod so that the carbs will come on.    Remember...... if it take 1 second to come on it probably take 1 second to come off..........    so I wouldn't floor the car with people or a parade in front of you.   You should check to see how much vacuum you have doing to the switch and check to see if the vacuum reservoir on the firewall holds vacuum.   I would put new vacuum lines on with clamps.

Our car was bought new by my grandfather.......... and always idled a little rich (black on the concrete under the exhaust).    Again, after going to the "right mechanic"...... he said, oh your car is not getting very good mileage is it ?    I said well, no it never has...   like maybe 7-8 miles per gallon.   He said your center carb is too rich and put a smaller jet size in........... first time in 50+ years to get 12 miles to the gallon, no black smoke.   I adjusted the choke.........  kind-of quite looking at the marks and just moved it till it was right (marks on black circle off).

Classic Car magazine did an article.... info from the early 1960's, January 2014 issue, pg 45..... 1959 Cadillac Eldorado tri-power clocked at 15.56 seconds to turn the quarter mile!    I don't drive my car like that and it probably would not quite do the 1/4 mile in 15.56 seconds but not far off......   really kicks butt, all stock.    I can't stress the importance of the "right mechanic"..........   FYI, I also took the distributor out of the car and had the same "right mechanic" go through it......   I think we had 24 degrees total mechanical advance and 12 degrees vacuum, 10 degrees on the crank (mechanical all in by 2800 to 3000 engine rpm-   some guys like it to come in a lot faster but it might be too much for 10.5:1).   I live in Arizona.   It does not ping.   I run about 2 gallons of 110 octane fuel with say 5-6 gallons of 91 octane.......... winter could probably go with no racing fuel, or set the initial timing at 5 degrees like a 4-barrel Cadillac.

Hope this helps, SHalver #24920
1960 Eldorado Seville, Grandfather Bought New
1970 Corvette Convertible 350/350

76eldo

I am not a carb expert by any means but the idle circuit is different from the running circuit.  Smaller jets will lean it out and the MPG gain you saw was impressive.

I have two tri-power cars, one I have had for a few years, and the other I just got a few months ago.  It's not running.

I read somewhere that Cadillac went with the vacuum setup so that the power on wide open throttle would not come on too suddenly, as it would with a mechanical linkage.  Then again, back in the 70's I had a 440 Six Pack Challenger RT that had three two barrels and that also had vacuum secondary carbs.

I had a mechanical linkage on the Challenger that I added, and ran 3 center carbs on it.

With the Cadillac setup, you could easily adapt a mechanical linkage to it and have the end carbs open all the way under wide open throttle.  Under that huge air cleaner, you could hide it too I bet.

On the Eldorado Seville I recently bought, I need to rebuild the engine.  It's only a 38,000 mile car, but it sat untouched for at least 15-18 years and since the engine is stuck, I am going to pull out the engine and trans over the winter and when I put it back together, I may end up playing with a mechanical linkage.

Unlike Cadillac owners in 1960, I like sudden acceleration.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Dan LeBlanc

With respect to your sticking choke issue.  Two questions:

Is the heat riser valve in place and working?

There is also a small gasket between the choke housing and the carburetor.  Once the car starts, it pulls the choke open just enough to allow the car to run but not choke itself out via vaccum.  If that is missing, the vacuum pressure is lost and doesn't get pulled off, so you're relying solely on the thermostat to open the choke.  If the carb has been rebuilt, double check to make sure that is still installed.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

60eldo

#7
      Yes,  the heat riser valve is there but I dont know if its working or not. If its working would I be correct in saying that when I start the car up,,,,COLD,,,no exhaust should be coming out the drivers side tail pipe til she warms up? Also, last nite I started her up ,,,COLD,,,and found that the tube coming up from intake to the choke was cold for the longest time, and the choke flap was barely opening, so I shut her off. I then removed the round black choke adjuster and found lots of black soot in choke set-up just like black smoke that comes out of tail pipe. Could that be caused by the heat riser valve not working? How important is the heat riser valve, is it more for winter time?
Jon. Klu

Dan LeBlanc

You are correct in stating that when the car is cold, the exhaust from the driver's side is redirected back up through the crossover in the intake manifold and as the car warms up, the valve opens and allows exhaust to flow out the driver's side again.

The presence of soot under the choke thermostat is not good.  That means the choke tube that runs through the intake that heats the choke is cracked or broken.  Unfortunately, the intake needs to come off, the spiral inside the tube removed, the old tube taken out and a new one installed.

You must have a ticking sound under the hood.

Also, the soot in the choke housing can block off the tiny little vacuum port that opens the choke ever so slightly when the car starts.  All of these things can result in the symptoms you describe.

While the intake is off, it's also a good opportunity to clean the exhaust passages beneath the centre carb.  These often plug up with soot.  These are the two recesses underneath the carburetor in the intake.  There is a hole under each one.  This allows hot exhaust to flow under the carb when the heat riser is cold to assist with warmup on a cold start.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

60eldo

#9
   Thanks Dan, you are a great help. The tube just slid out of the intake, it was only in there about half an inch so I cleaned it out and slid it back in. Sounds like I need someone who really knows this set up to help me here. Do you know anyone in the Toronto area that could take a look at this for me? When the car is warm it drives great, its just at start up that Im having problems and the fact that I dont know if all carbs are opening when I floor it.
Jon. Klu

Dan LeBlanc

#10
The tube that you just removed actually fits into another tube inside the intake.

This explains the replacement procedure in detail.

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=123081.0

One of the folks in Ontario on the Trillium CLCC may have a reference for someone to take it to.

forums.cadillacandlasalle.ca

Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

76eldo

Wow,

I didn't know all of that was going on in the manifold.

My 60 gets pretty white on the painted manifold so I am sure it is getting heated up.

As far as the heat riser, if you can find a new one I'd replace it, or just remove yours and get it freed up if it is stuck.  There are bushings that can be replaced or reamed if the assembly is bound up.

When I take the other 60 I am working on apart I will inspect that tube to see if it is present and in good shape.  I have bought and sold a few tri-power manifolds and never knew about that inner tube.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Dan LeBlanc

One thing is for sure, I'd rather have my heat riser stuck open than closed.

When working, they work well. Hit it with graphite lube and work it in by hand at every oil change.

They really heat up the intake. That's why scorched paint on the centre runner is authentic.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

60eldo

   So it seems all summer long I wasnt having this problem. Its when it turned cold.  My choke now is not working because the choke pipe is broken and is just barely inside the intake. So am I right in saying to fix this pipe, exhaust manifold comes off and a new pipe goes in from dr. side hole up through to the choke housing?
Jon. Klu

60eldo

     Lots of great info in this post
Jon. Klu

Dan LeBlanc

Just the intake needs to come off.  No need to touch the heads or the exhaust.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

jonas.eliasson

 You can easy see if the two outer carbs are working
start the car up for a minute and stop it go out pretty fast to engine with the cleaner off and give full throttle the vacuum resevoir on the fire wall has vacuum to open the two outer carbs if you pretty fast, if not open it not works or heavy vacuum leak in system :( :(
JONAS  ;D
jonas eliasson

60eldo

    OK,,,Im thinking of plugging the choke tube and going with electric choke. I know at the pass. side its open and must be plugged, but what about the drivers side under the intake. is that plugged there already or is this a hollow tube that must be plugged at both ends. Will JB weld work?
Jon. Klu

Dan LeBlanc

It is definitely open at both ends.  As hot exhaust passes through the intake manifold and heats the tube, it creates a chimney effect to deliver air to the choke thermostat.  The spiral is there to slow the airflow down to heat the air adequately before it reaches the thermostat.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car