petronix flamethrower coil

[ron pair]

i have just installed my third petronix flamethrower coil in my 59 coupe de ville.  i have the1181 ignitor for points replacement.  the car run and starts great, but for only some 300 plus miles and then the coil quits.  one had the top crack open and the oil spill out. the second became very hot and quit working.  they are installed in the horizontal position with the terminals at 3 and 6 oclock per the directions from their tech service department. 
i have talked to their tech guys and they say i have done everything correctly.  i replaced the original resistance wire in the ignition switch to a straight run so 12 volts are supplied to the coil at all times when the switch is on.

i have heard from others that the problem is that the coil will fail in the horizontal position due to the oil not completely covering the coil windings.  the tech people indicate this should not be the problem, but from the tone in their voice, i feel they may know more than they are saying.  so, i have put my coil in the vertical position and will report what happens after the next 2-3oo miles.
ron pair

[n2caddies]

I have the flamethrower in the horizontal position on 3 cars including the Cadillacs for several years with no problems. Something else is going on that is shorting out the coil or overheating it. Is it in the original bracket on the intake manifold that does provide some insulation from heat.
Have you checked the voltage from the ignition switch to the coil terminal to be sure it shows 12 volts? Any chance the the wire going to the distributor may be shorting out somewhere? Could the voltage regulator be defective putting out too much voltage at higher RPM?
Randy

[TJ Hopland]

I only have one of their coils and it is vertical in my boat running with a MSD 6 ignition box triggering off the points.   You would think if that was the issue they would clearly state that it must be vertical or perhaps offer a different option that would work horizontal.    In some ways it seems a little outdated that they are using an oil filled coil.   Also odd that many of the OE coils were oil filled and horizontal and seemed to work fine.   I wonder if to make em 'high performance' they don't fill them or use a thinner oil?  Are you using 'approved' resistor wires?   What are you running for plugs and gap?

I'm trying to remember what I had on the 66 Mustang.  Seems like I had some sort of 'performance' coil on that and I do seem to recall questioning the mounting position.   It was an inline engine so I would have thought it was vertical but maybe it was not, I will have to look for photos.   I know we drove it several thousand miles per year without issues.   That had a hybrid system I made from a later ford distributor and a GM hei module.   I think I burt up the original coil with that system and only ended up with the 'performance' one because it was cheaper and in stock than an 'oe' style one.

Found a photo, looks like it is a MSD coil and its at a 45* angle.    I'm trying to remember if maybe it was horizontal and the 45* was as far as it would go with one bolt removed from the bracket?  I do remember being concerned but the rest of the details are a little fuzzy.
 

If it goes out again I would try something different.   The most popular coil among junk yard hot rodders was a Ford one used on their last gen of distributor systems.  I can't recall the name at the moment but they are supposed to be very good performers and I don't appear to be a oil design.  I got them off of crown vic's or pickups, there always seemed to be plenty of those in the junk yards.  I have a few on various engines.   Its very similar looking to the GM HEI ones but has terminals so it can easily be connected to fairly conventional systems.

[Bobby B]

Ron,
Hi….Randy beat me to it! I also have 3 vehicles running in the horizontal positions with zero problems. I am not familiar with your cars specific wiring, but make sure you have at least 12V+ running to that coil when the car is running.  Did the car have an external ballast, resistance wire built in, or internally ballasted coil, and if so I'm sure you bypassed it as stated. Is the coil somehow getting 12V+ when not running in any key position other then "Start/Run"?  Simple test you can perform is to keep your new 12V+ feed  running directly to the ignitor (providing it is tapped into the "start/run" position and verified) and use the original coil with it's original feed, whether it be externally ballasted, resistance wire, or just the coil if it was internally ballasted. As Randy stated, critical to check the new source with an accurate multi-meter. Something else is going on here. It shouldn't fail like that. Keep us posted.   
                                                              Bob

[TJ Hopland]

How does the pertronix handle key on and engine not running?    Perhaps there is some strange circumstance going on where he is leaving the key on while filling up with gas (every 300 miles?) and that is overheating them?   Going through a car wash?    Stopped by a monthly train?

[TJ Hopland]

Still running an original generator and regulator?   Seems like I read about some odd interactions with some alternator conversions. 

[Bobby B]

TJ,
Hi. Pertronix, like most other coils, will be damaged if left "on". This is one point that needs to be checked. Coils usually run hot to the touch depending on the under hood temperatures , location, etc., but in a normal situation they are designed for that. Everything needs to be checked.  Simple troubleshooting here. He'll find it.
                                                                                                                           Bob
                                                                                                                 

[TJ Hopland]

That is why I was asking how the petronix handles that situation.   I suppose it would depend on the model?   They have 3 or 4 models now?    I know the 70-80's GM HEI design was such that it could not be 'left on'.   Even if the pickup happened to be aligned to the trigger point the module would only generate one pulse to the coil and then wait till it got another signal.   I know not all the electronics worked that way.  I am pretty sure that some could act just like points if the engine happened to be stopped in the closed position.    Theoretically in that situation the ballast resistor would then do its job of current limiting but even then I'm sure it was a stress test for all the components.   I would think if the pertronix didn't have some other protection scheme in place they would have required a resistor. 

TFI (thin film ignition) was the name of the Ford system / coil I was talking about. 

[Bobby B]

Yea…Today's wiring in vehicles is completely different with computers, relays, all sorts of electronically controlled fail-safe stuff. Old-school oil-filled dinosaur coils that we deal with are not really meant for constant "on" voltage. Another option is to try one of the epoxy-filled ones instead, but I would first try and get to the root of the problem rather than being a parts changer.  Since you really need to drive the car to  analyze it, you might want to carry a spare in the trunk till you get it worked out.
                                                                                                                          Bob

[n2caddies]

Double check that you are on the "switched " side of the ignition switch with your power supply to the coil and not giving the coil 12 volts constantly. On mine I pushed the male end of a spade connector next to the resistor wire in the ignition switch plug on the harness and connected  that to the coil after disconnecting the resistor wire from it. Keeps the original air intact if ever I want to go back original.

Randy

[James Landi]

I discussed the use of the Petronix system for use in my 1959 Century boat with a highly regarded professional marine engine restorer.  He was unhesitatingly against the use of this product, stating that the system easily failed if the ignition key was left on without the motor running even for a short time.  I had the impression that the problem was in the design of the product.   

[dplotkin]

As the owner of 7 other cars and a participant on many other forums I have learned that some Pertronix coils are known to be problematic.

1. It is not over-voltage but over-current that kills a coil. A ballast in the primary circuit may adversely affect the triggering unit but not the coil.

2. Ignition off, use a test lamp between the ignition side of the coil and ground. If it lights, you found one problem.

3. Try a conventional, low cost NAPA replacement coil. They make one for electronic ignition. Throw that in & see if it does the trick.

Myself, I avoid these electronic conversions and stay with high quality conventional points, condenser, cap & rotor. For a car that sees hobby use, these will perform well for 15,000 miles or more without these sorts of headaches. A fresh set of points in the glove box will get you home if in the rare instance a set fails. The bennifits of Pertronix is mostly imagined, in my opinion.

(I have 21,000 miles & 14 years on a set of points in a 63 Impala. The car starts so easy & runs so well I haven't touched them.)

Dan

[TJ Hopland]

So the 1181 we are dealing with here is the the original igniter 1?  vs the 2 or 3 or how ever models they have now?    I have not looked close but I think the 1 is a pretty basic system so maybe they could suffer from a key on engine not running situation?   Maybe not running key on always leaves the coil 'on' vs points where you got a 50/50 shot of landing with the points open or closed?   It would not seem like a very good design if that was true and the 1 has been around a long time now and overall seems to have a good rep. 

[walt chomosh #23510]

I've had two Petronix coils fail on me! Not fun.....walt....tulsa,ok

[dadscad]

For several years and lots of miles, In my 63, I ran the Igniter 1 original electronic trigger and matching flame thrower coil. The coil started to break down and couldn't fire the plugs if I opened the AFB's secondary's, the extra fuel just put out the spark. When I replaced the coil I decided to go with the Igniter II and matching coil. The Igniter II & III have circuitry that protects the system if the key is left on, plus other improvements over the original Igniter and coil combination.
David

[TJ Hopland]

Interesting that the 1 apparently does not have any protection for key on.   I can see getting the resistor out of the power feed to the module but they could have had you put one in the coil side or sold / required a resistor coil. 

[dadscad]

As I remember, the Igniter I literature sheet warned to not leave the key on with the engine off. If memory is correct, damage to the Igniter module would occur. Over the years, I know my ignition would be on for  short periods of time when tuning on the car and the engine would die. I would forget to turn off the key right away then I would panic remembering it was still on. Over time, that may have caused the deterioration of the coil, etc.

David

[TJ Hopland]

Interesting that they didn't do something in the 1 to minimize a problem like that.   Guess they wanted to keep it simple and possibly inexpensive.   I guess they sort of did 'fix' the problem, they came out with the 2 and 3 and maybe a 4 by now? 

[grandads59]

I have had the same problem in my 59 Ford P/U.  I think that heat was the problem was the heat since the coil was sitting right on top of the block.  It too was in a horizonal position.  I moved the coil to a remote location and mounted it vertically and have had no problems since .


J Hartwell
1959 coupe
1959 For p/u
97 s-10 w/ corvette engine