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Valve lifter tool J-827

Started by joeceretti, January 07, 2015, 10:19:42 AM

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joeceretti

I am curious if anyone has or has seen or even has a picture of the tool J-827 valve lifter tool referenced in the flathead shop manuals. It's used to hold the lifter plungers down while installing the lifter assemblies. I've had the lifters in and out so many times it has become relatively easy for me to do without the tool. I am sure it would be much easier with one though. I wonder how difficult it would be to make one up.

Steve Passmore

Not hard to make Joe, I have made several (can never find them when I need them)  in fact though they do not hold the lifters down, what they do is form a sort of slid platform that allows the lifters to slid under the valves. Its a simple piece of steel with a 45 degree fold that sits on the block, the other flat sits over all the lifters, theres a wire handle to yank it out.  See if you can make it out from this picture from my 36 manual.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Whit Otis, 1188

Joe,  Without the special tool, are you using the screwdriver method to install the lifter assemblies?  Getting ready to put mine back in my 40-75.... just curious how you are doing it.

Steve, picture is a little hard to make out.... wouldn't mind making the tool.... would a sketch from you be possible showing dimensions and where to "break" the sheet?  Also, how thick is the material.... must be fairly stout I would think.

Whit Otis
Whit Otis -
1941 6219D Custom
1941 6219D
1940 7533F
1986 Mercedes Benz 560 SEL
1999 Bentley Arnage
2019 XT5
Drawing of AP Sloan Custom by Terry Wenger

Whit Otis, 1188

Forgot to mention.... side view sketch would be the most helpful since we can see the top in the picture quite well.

Whit
Whit Otis -
1941 6219D Custom
1941 6219D
1940 7533F
1986 Mercedes Benz 560 SEL
1999 Bentley Arnage
2019 XT5
Drawing of AP Sloan Custom by Terry Wenger

Steve Passmore

Cant help you much more there  Whit. The size is governed by the size of the opening in the block, you have the 90 degree bend that you can see and theres another of about 45 degree or so out of sight that would be parallel to the line of the valves and cam. Its shaped like a 'T' below that line to cover all the lifters.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

joeceretti

#5
Whit: I struggled to install these the first time. Then I thought about it and realized that the engineers expected the dealers would be cleaning and reinstalling these many many times due to the poor quality oil and lack of filters. They made the mounting bolts the way they did for a reason, at least I surmise this. The proof is in the pudding, or the ease of re-installation.

To do it, without the tool.

I put the lifter assembly in place and keep them up high on the bolts. Screw the bolts in a touch and lower the assembly so that it touches the valves. Then I tighten the bolts by hand until the bolts start to push the assembly against the valve. Then I use a socket to just VERY SLIGHTLY, without bending anything, tighten the bolts and press the lifter tops against the bottom of the valve stems. Then I use a screwdriver to gently pry the valves up and with a click each lifter pops under the valve. Then, once the four lifters are popped under the valve stems I tighten the lifter assemblies down, pushing them into place.

The key to make this work is to turn the engine, either by hand, or with the starter (I am lazy and use the starter) until the cam lobes are all at their low points. The other thing is to make sure you coat the cam lobes and the foot of the lifter with a good quality extreme pressure grease.

Steve: As usual I way over thought what the tool was comprised of. A simple steel plate. Of course, the engineers lived these cars. The plate would work fantastic with my method above and remove the need to pry on the valve stems risking causing damage to the lifters, the stems or your hand/arm. I suspect just a piece of flat metal would work, just bottom it out against the inner wall. Pull the lifters in with the bolts. Then pull the sheet out with a pair of vicegrips. Greasing up the metal would probably help prevent scratches to the mating surfaces.

Whit Otis, 1188

Joe,  Thanks for the ideas.  Like the use of the bolts to kind of hold things in place while prying up on the valves, or in my case, I will be prying down on the lifters to slip them in place as they won't have any oil in the plunger assemblies yet.  Will probably turn my engine over by hand.  That's what I did to measure the lift on my cam lobes.  Once the lifter assemblies are in place, I will connect the main oil feed at the bulkhead in the block, but leave the connections loose at the lifter brackets and then crank the engine over to fill all the lines with oil before making final connection at the brackets.  Thanks again,
Whit
Whit Otis -
1941 6219D Custom
1941 6219D
1940 7533F
1986 Mercedes Benz 560 SEL
1999 Bentley Arnage
2019 XT5
Drawing of AP Sloan Custom by Terry Wenger

joeceretti

#7
I did basically the same as you the last time I installed them but I used a oil pressor to fill the external line, then I connected it into the fitting at the valley and turned the pressor back on until I saw oil come out around all of the lifters. After having the terrible sewing machine like noise I had at first I wasn't about to have it happen again. But then I still had a bit of noise in some of the lifters. Nothing terrible but I want it quiet. So this time I pulled them out, got my other 16 lifters I have. Soaked them in acetone and atf. Then soaked them in Pine-Sol. The Pine-Sol seemed to really do the trick. Every day I took the lifters one at a time out of the individual mason jars I had them in. Rinsed them and using MOUTH pressure (I rinsed and brushed them very very well) checked the ability of each check valve to allow warm water through (Yes a mouthful of warm water) and the ability for the check valve to easily or not stop the back flow. It took about 5 days for them to clean up. I found 2 from the set that was just in the car that didn't work well at stopping the back flow and EIGHT from the set that was in there that wouldn't stop the back flow at all. I graded them on my subjective feel with mouth pressure and picked the 16 best. Those 16 will be put in the engine. They will be going back in this weekend. The other 16 I will leave soaking in the Pine-Sol until I get around to finishing the rebuild on the spare engine I am working on.

I suppose that a proper setup would or could be built with gauges and pumps to check flow rates into and pressurize and check for back flow leakage in the check valve. For my purpose the mouth method was more than adequate. No, I never got a mouthful of either dirty oil or even Pine-Sol. Thanks for that.

As an interesting side note, I could tell when the gunk in the lifter softened and came free. The Pine-Sol in the individual jars just smelled like Pine-Sol at first. The jars with a freed up check valve got a STRONG sulpher smell. Must have been from the high sulpher content in the oil used over the years. I rinsed and repeated until all jars smelled terrible. I won't be using that Pine-Sol to clean anything.

Whit Otis, 1188

Good Post!!!  When I rebuilt my engine 30 years ago, I bought all new lifters from John Lindhardt.  Gads, if I could turn back the clock I would have bought 10 sets.  Anyway,  cleaned all my lifters with mineral spirits and then to be sure there was no sludge in the check ball compartment, I shot each plunger stem and then through the cylinder hole with BrakeKleen and Electromotive cleaner.  Once dry, you could literally rattle the check ball by shaking the plunger assy.  I used mineral spirits to check for check ball leakage by merely filling each plunger cylinder and then observing each for 2 minutes to see if i got a drop of mineral spriits out the stem.  All were perfect..... don't know if a simple gravity test is the best answer, but that's what I did.  Also, my lifter noise was at higher RPM, but if you started the car after it sat for months, there was no clatter, indicating to me that noise wasn't a result of lifter leakage.  Nonetheless, I leak tested them all ..... this  after finding that the brass 45 degree fitting in the center engine block bulkhead feeding the rear lifter gallery literally fell out in my hand when I was removing the tubing assys.  Also did comprehensive measuremenets of lifter body and plunger assemblies extended length vs collapsed length.  Also measured lifter cage bore ID's, lifter body OD's, lifter body OAL, cam heel to valve stem, and cam lift with dial indicator.  Note, the engine is in the car, not on a stand, so some of this was not fun when trying to see down into the cam valley while leaning over a 75 series fender with sidemounts!
Whit
Whit Otis -
1941 6219D Custom
1941 6219D
1940 7533F
1986 Mercedes Benz 560 SEL
1999 Bentley Arnage
2019 XT5
Drawing of AP Sloan Custom by Terry Wenger