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Can't get High Pressure line off Power Steering (500 Eldorado) [Pictures]

Started by mummyjohn, January 30, 2015, 05:22:25 PM

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mummyjohn

G'day all.  My power steering pump has a leak and I'm trying to get it off the engine, but the first step of removal - "disconnect pressure and return lines from pump" - has already caused problems.

The high-pressure line out of the pump to the steering gear screws into a "pressure union" (term used in the manual); this pressure union itself is removable (and has it's own O-ring).  I can't seem to get the thread on the high pressure pipe (indicated by turquoise arrow in pics) to thread out of the pressure union (green arrow).  Furthermore, should it rotate around the pipe itself (orange arrow)?  If I hold the pipe and wrench the nut (turquoise) I feel like I'm bending the pipe.

It should be noted that the pressure union readily screws out of the pump.  Naturally, I believe this is what's causing the leak...I think the last guy to put it on didn't do it properly.  Regardless, I'd like to install it myself, per the manual, and see if the problem's solved (and yes, I do have the O-ring set for the PS pump).

What am I doing wrong here?


I shot a picture to show everyone just where on the car I'm talking about; the red box in the medium shot is roughly the frame of the close-up.
- E. Ringman

1971 Eldorado coupe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Get a wrench on the pressure fitting and hold it steady while you loosen the flare fitting with another wrench.  Tubing wrenches will work the best.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

The Tassie Devil(le)

The nut should rotate around the tube, but if it is rusted within the nut, it will try and turn with the nut.

If you cannot get it off in situ, undo the other end from the steering box and remove the pump and hose as a unit, then attack it on the bench where you will have better and clearer access.

If you don't have access to flare spanners, use the largest adjustable shifter you can get on the nut, and work with that.   Smaller shifters just flex, as do set spanners.

And, if the worst happens, and the nut still won't come off, a good pair of vice grips work.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Scot Minesinger

Be sure and use the two wrenches or you will rip the hex connection off the pump.  I just did this on 74 and it was on there.  The wrench that is on the pump should be braced on something solid (had to remove pump from mounting to make this happen for me).  Then with the wrench on the pump braced (at end) and say at 9 o'clock, position the high quality tubing wrench on the power steering hose flare nut at 10 or 11 o'clock.  Take a small sledge hammer and rehearse hitting the wrench on the power steering nut down.  Hit it hard.  The sudden blow will loosen the nut.  Worked for me first time, what seemed impossible.  The nut will not be rounded.  No slight rappid hits.  Need to be a hard smack from the hammer.  This works on all jammed/rusted bolts/nuts, it is same effect as impact type.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

mummyjohn

Was worried about rounding over the flare nut (it sure was on there tight) but I got a set of flare wrenches and that did the trick right easily.

Now that I've the pump off the car, I have encountered another problem....how to loosen the nut that holds the pulley on the shaft.  The manual actually doesn't say anything about this...it just jumps right to "use pulley puller to remove pulley from shaft."  At the end of the instructions (reassembly) it says "Install pulley nut, tighten to 47 foot-pounds."

How does one tighten or loosen this nut, without just spinning the pump?  I.E. how do you prevent the entire shaft from rotating?
- E. Ringman

1971 Eldorado coupe

Scot Minesinger

DO NOT USE A PULLER

If you do the puller will bend this flimsy pulley, and you will have to replace it.  I have removed and replaced several of these and this is how I do it.  I have an inexpensive Harbor freight shop press ($200 for a 12 ton).  This will come in handy in so many ways, a good investment for the infrequently used press.  Anyway.

Clamp the pulley with two pieces of pine wood to prevent the pulley from being damaged or deformed.  You can clamp it in a vice or the afore mentioned press.  Just make sure pine is in contact with the pulley edge.  Hold the pump and a wrench will easily remove the nut.  I have heard others use impact wrenches, I do not have one.

The pulley needs to be pressed off the shaft.  You will need to brace the pulley real well and maybe supply some heat and shock force (hammer) before doing it.  If you do not have a press, a puller could only work if you made a protective piece from 1/4" plate steel shaped like a donut.  The last one I removed was so in there on a 74 a few months ago, the pressing still ruined the pulley.  Since the reason I was removing it was because it was bad (from prior efforts perhaps) it did not matter.  Took more force to remove than some ball joints on control arms.

The pulley goes on real easy compared to removal.

Enjoy this rich experience,

Scot   
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Usually loosening the pulley nut can be done while the pump is still installed and the belt tight.  Using a belt in the groove to protect the pulley you can wrap a chain wrench around the circumference over the belt and hold the pulley that way.  Once the nut is loosened and removede the pulley itself should come off with minimum "convincing" by a (at least) 3 jaw puller. Later, single belt PS pumps have the pulley pressed on and a simple specialty puller/installer shown in the manual is worth its weight in gold.
Greg Surfas
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

Took mine up to a local shop.  Guy put an impact wrench on the bolt and it came rite off.  Wasn't concerned about the old pump so we just took care on the pulley. 
I am going to suggest you replace the hi pressure line.  Mine looked OK from the outside but the hose part blew off the metal fitting one day.  If the fitting has been on long enough to be frozen in place, it's probably time to replace it. 
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

35-709

"I am going to suggest you replace the hi pressure line.  Mine looked OK from the outside but the hose part blew off the metal fitting one day.  If the fitting has been on long enough to be frozen in place, it's probably time to replace it."

My thinking too as I read this thread --- replace the hose once you get it off, not worth putting it back on again.  To help prevent the nut from rusting to the pipe in the future, slide the nut back and put a thin swipe of Never Seez on the tube itself where the nut will be when tightened.  Works great when assembling steel brake lines too.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Scot Minesinger

Replace high pressure hose, a friend of mine's Eldorado caught fire because of a hose failure and fluid contacting exhaust manifold.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Julien Abrahams

With regard to removing the pulley: use wood blocks to protect the pulley itself and put it in a vise (not too tight, otherwise you'll damage it). The nut should not be that hard to get off. Once the nut is off, you can use a 3 legged puller to get it off the shaft. I did this with my pump last year, and it went rather easily. Also, if you have a PS pump kit (new gaskets), I would use this opportunity to put new gaskets in the pump as well. Its a half an hour job, and it would be a pity if you have it all back together only to discover that its leaking somewhere else.
Good luck.
1954 Cadillac series 62
1967 Cadillac Sedan De Ville HT
1969 Austin Healey Sprite
1979 Opel Kadett

Scot Minesinger

Julien,

You are the luckiest when it comes to PS pulley removal.  Probably all of us were told or suffered a bent pulley using a three leg puller.  You are the only one who I have heard of that succeeded this way.  Have pressed four off in the last two years and judging from the amount of force required, I would have bent the pulley in all cases.  Hope your luck continues. 

I use the wood block method too to clamp the pulley to remove nut and that works great.  However, I like Greg's idea best, let the belt hold the pulley and loosen the nut while it is on the car (very first part of job) - no clamping.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Julien Abrahams

Scot, I also had my share of bad luck, so that evens it out a bit :).   8). Sorry to hear that yours was such a pita to get off. Does it perhaps have something to do with the type of pump?
1954 Cadillac series 62
1967 Cadillac Sedan De Ville HT
1969 Austin Healey Sprite
1979 Opel Kadett

mummyjohn

First off: SUCCESS!

Secondly, I'm amazed at the response this has gotten, and so quickly - I love this site!

The flare nut wasn't stuck, it just seems that the last guy installed the pump incorrectly - the pressure union was way loose.  I did replace the O-rings (that was the purpose of the whole exercise) and now it is holding the fluid just fine and dandy.

The pulley nut was a DEVIL to get off.  Even clamping the pulley in a wood-edged vise wasn't enough.  I had to apply heat to the nut to get it off.  Having accomplished this just before leaving for dinner, I shot the shaft with WD-40 and came back to finish the job the next morning.  The pulley wheel came off without putting up a fight at all - I was able to just pull if off with my hands and some elbow grease.

Torqued everything up right and it's held fluid overnight (used to start dripping in a matter of minutes).

Thanks for all the tips once more, gents.
- E. Ringman

1971 Eldorado coupe

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

My pulley came off easily too.  Maybe the fact the thing was leaking out the front, onto the back of the pulley had something to do with it.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Julien Abrahams

I 'rebuilt' my pump as well (just replaced all the seals) because of a similar problem. Mine was leaking between the pump and the reservoir. So, it might have aided in getting the pulley off as it had probably been soaked in ATF for at least a month :).
1954 Cadillac series 62
1967 Cadillac Sedan De Ville HT
1969 Austin Healey Sprite
1979 Opel Kadett

bcroe

Power steering hoses here get replaced every couple decades as regular maintenance; I don't
want one blowing on the road.  Sounds like the parts were previously tightened in the wrong
order and/or not properly held stationary.  Don't get into this without tubing wrenches, English
or metric as required.  I don't know why so many people worry about removing the pulley; I
have NEVER done that.  Those pumps seem to last forever if you don't run them dry; if one
failed, the yard is full of good ones.  Bruce Roe

cadillacmike68

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on February 01, 2015, 12:57:29 AM
Replace high pressure hose, a friend of mine's Eldorado caught fire because of a hose failure and fluid contacting exhaust manifold.

That happened to me on the 1968!  :o

Fortunately I was parking at a car show and half a dozen fire extinguishers were on the car before I could even get out of it.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike