Whodunit? Motor or lower bumper? New problem: sash bent on '65 Fleetwood window

[CadillacMac]

SAME PROJECT, NEW PROBLEM!

You guys helped me fix the problem with the window leveling. But NOW...

The lower sash (metal piece that attaches the window glass to the motor assembly) is somehow bent or being torqued in the middle.  (In the pictures it's the rubber piece over the sash.)  Too much space between the sash and the glass in the middle of the door, instead of being between the sash and the door metal.)  So much so, I can't fit the weatherstripping and trim piece back in there. 

I've looked at it all.  Took the window out, adjusted the up and down arms, checked the screws around the motor assembly, both side channels/guides are apparently in the right spot.  The other rear door is fine, and I can't find a difference between the two when I took that panel off.  (I don't think it's as simple as bending the metal sash back, because I think it's BEING bent by something in the assembly/some other adjustment. Somehow the trim was on before!) 

It's bent whether it's all the way lowered, or all the way up.  If only there was another bolt in the middle, because it's OK on the sides of the window where the bolts are. 

I've noticed it slides off the lower bumper when it hits it at the end of the downward movement.  The rubber on the bumper is clipped off on the end.  So it hits the bumper, then slides off the end.  That could be what bent it outward, and maybe if I get a new piece and replace the rubber stop it won't bend next time?

Not too confident that would fix it, because 1) the motor arms may have been bent outward too by that movement, 2) I don't think it was bent before the project and I haven't moved the window up and down that many times, and 3) it doesn't seem like this metal would bend so easily. 

I may have bored everyone with this post, so I'll stop if I don't hear anything else!


EARLIER POST: 



1965 Fleetwood Brougham:

I can't figure it out, and neither can anyone I've had look at this.   But they aren't the Cadillac experts, right?  You guys are!  HELP ME PLEASE!

I replaced my rear window motors with no problem.  (Well I did have to mess with one to stop it from going the opposite direction when you flipped the switch.)  But the issue has been when I put everything back together, the window goes up TOO FAR.  And now that I look around, it's a problem on one or two of the other windows I haven't messed with yet, just to a lesser degree.  They're going up about a half inch too far on one side, and tearing through my weatherstripping.  On the rear door it's worse closest to the door handle, and fine next to the hinge.   I've messed with the track, adjusted the bolts on the glass, just about everything I can see.  But I can't figure it out.  What am I missing? 

That's the rear passenger door in the pictures.  I've taken the weatherstripping off, so that's not rubber, that's the bottom of the window--which you shouldn't be seeing.  So you can see how high it goes when it's supposed to be level. 

What am I missing?  Is there an adjustment on or within the motor itself?

Thanks so much for any help, I've been flummoxed for months!

[Julien Abrahams]

First,
What do you mean exactly with 'goes up too far'? You mean that if you open the door and make the window go up, the window would hit the body if you'd close the door? Or does it go up, and then you can close the door (and the window "falls" against the weather stripping (which I believe is correct). Second: Do you have a shop manual and / or Body by Fisher Service manual? For my '67, the window adjustments are discussed in the Body by Fisher Service Manual.
I attached 2 pictures from my Body by Fisher Model (for '67).
The Fisher manual states:
2) To adjust upper rear corner of window in-or-out in relation to side roof rail weatherstrip, loosen rear guide upper attaching bolt (#5) and position run channel farther in board. If this adjustment proves inadequate, remove door trim panel and obtain additional adjustment at one or both of the following:
a) Rear guide to lower support attaching bolt (#6)
b) Ventilator front frame adjusting nut (#7).
Outboard adjustment at either of these locations tends to move the door window upper rear corner inboard. Conversely, inboard adjustment of either attachment moves the top of the glass outboard.

3) To adjust window up travel   operate window to  "full up position" and loosen front and rear upper stops (# 3 and 4). Operate window to desired up position and tighten stop bolts.

And are you sure the motors are right for the car? Just a thought. Hopes the above helps.

[CadillacMac]

WOW, thanks so much Julien!  I'll print this out and take a look! Reading your reply, I guess it isn't as bad as it could be!  Closed or open, the window will go up and down no problem and stop almost where it's supposed to.  By "up too far" I meant it stops itself just a half inch past where it should, meaning into the weatherstripping at the bottom of the window/top of the door body panel. 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

When the window reaches the Window Stops, and one still keeps their finger on the button, it is the Circuit Breaker that is in the wiring that overheats and turns off the power to the motor, so it can't burn itself out.

Most people simply let the button go when the window stops, but if you hold the singer down, for too long, the circuit breaker will still do its' intended job.

Bruce.

[cadman56]

Sounds like the UP stops are missing or out of adjustment.  Most middle to late 60's caddys I have worked on have a large cushion on a bracket for the window to rest on when in the DOWN position.  Are these rubber pads in place?
Shop manuals for your car are readily available.  If you don't have one do get one.  They are also available on DVD.  Larry

[JoeKarasinski]

That's what it sounds like to me too. the "up" stops are missing or out of adjustment. Did you remove the stops when you had the door apart? Its possible also that they are upside down now.

[CadillacMac]

Thanks a lot, guys.  I'm not as knowledgable as you all, this is a family car and my Dad and I have been working on it since I was a kid.  Making upgrades when we could and "restoring it" as it broke one thing at a time!  Some things like the cruise and comfort control I don't know if I'll ever be able to handle, but you guys give me hope!

I've got a couple of shop manuals but they didn't address this. I realize now I need to get a new body manual, my old CD ROM one doesn't work anymore on new computers!

I'm off to find that upper stop, thanks a million!

[Julien Abrahams]

Good luck!
Try e-bay to search for one of those Body by Fisher Service manuals. My '67 Cadillac shop manual does not address window alignment issues. I've got both on one CD (put in on my hard drive so the CD rom drive doesn't drive me mad when browsing through the manuals.
I think they are readily available (for the '65) and don't cost a fortune (something around $40,-).

With regard to the Cruise and Comfort control: take your time, ask questions on this forum and become best friends with your shop manual. I believe the shop manuals for American cars are excellent compared to shop manuals for example for German or English cars.
The comfort control (is that the '65 name for the Automatic Climate Control?) is a lot of vacuum lines. I undertook the same project last summer and had a lot of help on this forum. If you search, you will most likely find it. My car does not have cruise control, but I'm sure that people will chime in with their response as soon as you are ready to tackle the problem. Just make sure that you clearly state the problem, that helps to cut down the possibilities of what could be wrong.

[CadillacMac]

Thanks again Julien.  Yeah I think just about everything on this car is vacuum hoses.  From the power door locks to the cruise and AC and everything else.  Ahhh the pre-electronic days...but you have to hand it to them, they found a way to make it work!  The fact that a lot of it is still ticking away 50 years later, untouched, makes me proud to drive it!

Over the years I've replaced miles of the tubing, only to have the seal break somewhere else!  I'll figure it out eventually.  Finding this resource of helpful people is pretty exciting though.  Now I need to join the local club so I can get pointers on what shops to go to when I need something like exhaust work done without broken bolts. 

And I'll try to be more precise in my language!  Thanks!

[CadillacMac]

Thanks to you all, I got my body manual, adjusted the stop bolts, was really excited that I'd found you guys who helped finish the job...and then...a new failure when I tried to put it back together! 

Take a look at the pictures. When you look at the originals at the top of this thread, I fixed the level problem.  But now I'm seeing the lower sash (metal piece that attaches the window glass to the motor assembly) is somehow bent or being torqued in the middle.  (In the pictures it's the rubber piece over the sash.)  Too much space between the sash and the glass in the middle of the door, instead of being between the sash and the door metal.)  So much so, I can't fit the weatherstripping and trim piece back in there. 

I've looked at it all.  Took the window out, adjusted the up and down arms, checked the screws around the motor assembly, both side channels/guides are apparently in the right spot.  The other rear door is fine, and I can't find a difference between the two when I took that panel off.  But I must have done something wrong with the reattachment of the window motor assembly, because it's right over that middle area that the sash is "bent."  (I don't think it's as simple as bending the metal sash back, because I think it's BEING bent by something in the assembly/some other adjustment. Somehow the trim was on before!) 

It's bent whether it's all the way lowered, or all the way up.  If only there was another bolt in the middle, because it's OK on the sides of the window where the bolts are.  Any suggestions?

[Julien Abrahams]

Hmm, that's weird. Tough one. The manual most likely doesn't say anything about this, right?
Maybe the "A" and "C" bolts have to be torqued evenly? Do others have other suggestions?

[CadillacMac]

Julien, you haven't given up on me!  Yeah the manual just tells you to slap the window on the sash and move on.  I'd find another sash out of a junkyard, but I think if the current one is bent, that one would get to be too! 

Should I start a new thread?  I don't want to be rude and flood the forum, but this low on the current thread and it may look like I'm going back over the same problem as before, and you fixed that one!

[Julien Abrahams]

I don't think you need to start a new thread as new posts within a thread bump the thread up anyway, so people will read the latest post to find out about the specific problem. Happens all the time: you fix one thing, only to find another to go wrong .

[Julien Abrahams]

Anyoone can help Mac get this problem sorted?
@ Mac: If I get the chance, I will have a look at the spacing of my windows ('ts a '67, but they're not that much different).

[CadillacMac]

Hey thanks for trying to revive me, Julien, I really appreciate your help!

But not getting help on here actually drove me  to sign up for both the national and local chapter of the CLC!  They've already got me signed up to come to a clinic, and are ready to help with other guys and their '65s! 

Thanks again!

[Julien Abrahams]

Hey Mac,
Good to hear you're using multiple resources . What is the CLC?

[55 cadi]

Julien,

The "CLC" is this forum you are posting on.

"Cadillac & LaSalle Club", you are on as a guest but if you join, I believe it's $50 you become a member and get a lot more out of the club than just posting, you get set up with resources for your Cadillac to help with it, monthly news letters and more.

I highly recommend joining.

Under people's name you will see a red emblem and a number, those are members

Jason

[Julien Abrahams]

Ohh ok . Good to know. Will look into it. Thanks .