1941 Cadillac 61 value

[jturbo10]

I'm new to this forum as I normally restore John Deere antique tractors and some farm trucks.  I have been a Cadillac owner for over 30 but never an antique.  My wife is wanting me to restore something by Cadillac from the 40s as her dad was at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941 etc., as you all know the rest of the story.  I have an opportunity to buy a one owner 1941 Cadillac 4 door fastback which I believe to be a model 61.  It is complete down to the hubcaps, radio, clock, ash trays, etc.  I've only seen pictures so far but it does not appear to have any major rust except for faded original paint.  The 346 engine and auto transmission are complete but the engine is stuck.  Don't know if it was parked running and stored for 30 yrs but I will try to find out the total history later.  It will need a new interior and trunk, but it has an original spare tire and the trunk doesn't appear to have any rustout.    I have never worked on flatheads but I'm a good mechanic so repairing the drivetrain is not a concern but cracked blocks, heads, cranks, are an issue.  Since it is stuck, I will have to buy as is.  All the glass, fenders, bumpers, side chrome, door handles, etc., are in fair to excellent condition.
My questions are:  Is the 41 Caddy a good collectible car and is the model 61 a good candidate for restoration?  Are parts available for 346 flatheads?  Any good sources for engines and trannys.  I know the 346 powered a lot of WW II tanks etc., but are any surplus engines still around?  What would be a good starting range for price?  Any thoughts on how much a upholstery job would cost for front and rear in that original felt material.  I know it is hard to give prices without seeing the car but any hints on things to look for when evaluating the car's value would be appreciated.  I'm planning on making it a driver car that can be taken out in good weather for drives in the country side, some period shows, etc.  It will be driven only on special occasions but I don't want to turn it into a hangar queen that never sees the sunlight.  I already have some tractors that rarely get driven other than parades and tractor shows.  Appreciate any thoughts or advice.  Thanks.  J. Hutfles

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

The one bad thing about a Series 61 is that they are not a CCCA Classic. I have a good friend who is trying to sell his similar car on eBay but he needs twice what the car gets bid up to. (Well above 50K). I have judged it and it is admittedly the best, or one of the best in the world. But he's not going to get what he wants for the car because it's not a Classic. Chrome cost just as much, paint costs just as much, and upholstery costs just as much for the Series 61 as the Series 62, 63, 67, 60S, and 75. You figure it out.

[76eldo]

I sold a 1941 Deluxe Sedan which was an AACA Senior car.

I had a really tough time getting offers around $25,000 and ultimately sold it for $23,000.

I sold it for a dear friend's wife after my friend Don Magee passed away.

I thought it would have brought closer to $30,000 but after months of advertising and running it on ebay a few times, that's all it brought.

Brian

[C.R. Patton II]

Hello Hutflles

Glad to read you are interested in acquiring a Cadillac.

Thus far you have received practical experienced advice from Cadillac men who have turned wrenches not written checks.  The year you suggested is popular but the model is normal.  You and the Mrs. could be satisfied with this car.  However I believe both of you should be patient and SEARCH for a Cadillac that will not only bring a $mile but make you happy.

Take the time to join our CLC National organization and a region near your residence.  Meet members that own various era Cadillac's.  Ask ALL the questions that come to mind BEFORE you purchase.  Then enjoy the camaraderie and joy of Cadillac (LaSalle) ownership.

[joeceretti]

To help you with your other question. Yes, parts are not overly difficult to come by for the 346. The biggest problem, in my experience is finding a mechanic who understands these engines. Most modern day rebuilders are very experienced in Chevy engines. Quite a different animal. All that said, I love the look of that model.

[Steve Passmore]

All this is sound advice so far. The fastback might appeal to the eye but the 61 series was Cadillacs lowest priced model. they do not command great prices and will certainly not return anywhere near the restoration cost.   If someone had an affinity with a particular car, could do all the work themselves and the cost wasn't an option then all well and good, but for you looking for a car to restore where you have to pay others for the trim etc you will never see your money back even if the car was a gift.

As for cost? I would hazard a guess in your country an interior might be in the $10,000 region, same again for chrome, same again for paint and I wouldn't buy it without seeing detailed pictures of the floor areas under the carpet, these suffered badly with rust below the door pillars.

[marty55cdv]

  I agree with Steve on restoration VS return, and as far as it not being a full classic, I am not sure from your use that is even a factor,
  If you are really looking for a project to take up your time and quite a bit of money then go for it , if you are going for bang for your buck and just want to enjoy owning a 41, it is relatively easy to find a nice example for 20k

[las39]

I'm I the only wondering about automatic in a 41 ? What has been done to the shifter on the steering column ?
If you fall in love with a car, buy it. Forget selling value.

[Steve Passmore]

I'm I the only wondering about automatic in a 41 ? What has been done to the shifter on the steering column ?

Why would you query that??  Auto WAS offered in 41.

[las39]

I thought it was only offered after the war, Thanks for clarifying

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

Mo, I've had some fifty collector cars and loved them all, mostly. But I've sold the convertibles "just before" they skyrocketed in value, and several other ones that I sold at the wrong time. At my age, you start thinking about the mess you  might leave for your wife to take care of. And I'm thinning out the scrap paper and parts.

[Caddy Wizard]

41s are lovely cars -- all of them.  The car will cost you more to restore than it will be worth when done, even with you doing all of the work.  Parts, materials, and especially services are incredibly expensive.  Chrome, rubber parts, interior materials, paint materials, etc. will be much pricier than you might imagine.

Personally, I love redoing sedans like this (although admittedly, I stick to 1949 to 1956 cars).  I find the sedans to have held up better many times and they make practical cars that I can enjoy with family, friends, colleagues, etc. 

The bottom line is that if you are concerned with avoiding ending up upside-down, you should buy a high quality car that is already restored.  If you are doing this for the enjoyment, go ahead.  But even at that, you (probably) will lose less money on a 60S than on a 62S and (probably) will lose less money on a 62S than on a 61S.

Sometimes even a car that is free is too expensive...

[Caddy Wizard]

Here is a 41 Series 61 on ebay.  My guess is that the price doesn't get to more than about $25K tops.  No way to restore a car to a decent level for anywhere near that small of a number...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-Cadillac-Series-61-Touring-Sedan-/271795015109?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

[Walter Youshock]

Unfortunately, the bread and butter cars aren't the collectible ones.  The more luxurious 62 and 60 series are sought after.  The lower the production,  the more desired they are.  Look at '50's eldorados vs base 62 series convertibles.

These cars are rare today because they were driven into the ground or became parts donors for other cars.

I've been a member of the CLC for 22 years and attended many Grand Nationals.  I've seen hundreds of '41 60 specials, '50's eldorados and Fleetwood but not one 1951 series 61 sedan or coupe, the last year of that series.

[marty55cdv]

Here is a 41 Series 61 on ebay.  My guess is that the price doesn't get to more than about $25K tops.  No way to restore a car to a decent level for anywhere near that small of a number...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-Cadillac-Series-61-Touring-Sedan-/271795015109?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

Art is probably right where it will top out, this car is listed on the dealers website for 49,500 , I think it would be tough to get the car Mr. Hutfles is speaking of to this level, even for that amount of money

[Smedly]

I don't think there is a car out there that can be "RESTORED" for less then price at resale time. This always seams to be the general census every time someone is looking for help on value before purchase. It seams that restoration costs or driven by value of the parts. The more valuable the finished car will be the more cash for the parts. Good old supply and demand.
I am sure this gentleman is aware the hobby is a labor of love. I know a few people who are in the Tractor hobby and they say it is the same.
If you like the car and feel it "fits" the order, buy it just try to get the best deal on it you can, the same as you have probably done with you tractors. If this is your first Caddy perfect it is a Caddy and as mentioned parts will not be that hard to locate, and should not be as hard on the wallet as the parts for a "full classic". By the time your project is done and you are finished enjoying it maybe it will be a Classic. If not consider the loss payment for the enjoyment of driving it and spending that time with your wife.

[gary griffin]

Hi Mr Hutfles,

   All of the advice above is valid. I am just finishing my third car, 1942 Cadillac model 6719.  I like it because it is unusual. My point is why do you like the 1941?  Do you like to restore cars?  If you like it and are anticipating the tasks of restoration buy it.  I am 74 and already have two more restorations purchased and ready to go.  I worked on old cars when I was young and still like it. I subcontract out the work I can no longer do and do the things I can do.  My kids will never get the price out of them that I am spending to restore them but they are glad I have a hobby that I am enjoying in my retirement. 

  As to mechanical parts available you would have no problem, but they are not cheap and you have to be careful not to get Chinese junk. Deal only with suppliers suggested by the members of this forum and you should be O K.

  A full upholstery job will be costly. If you have a local person that is reasonable possibly under $5,000 but if you go to a restoration specialist it could be double that.  Correct materials will be in the neighborhood of $70 to $80 a yard for example.  If all of the chrome needs replating it could be $3,000 or so.  I am guessing you can figure the paint and body work costs due to your tractor experience.  Good luck. If you go ahead with this project you will be able to find plenty of advice on this forum.

[smstalter]

For what it's worth, I own one of these. It belonged to my dad, who passed away in 2013. It's been sitting in the garage since 1964, when my dad overheated the engine and poured water into it while it was still too hot. This cracked the block, so it sat unmoved since before I was even born. Before my dad passed away, I began working with him to get it back on the road again. I can share with you some of my experiences with it and answer some of your questions in the hope that this will be of some help to you.

Q: Is the 41 Caddy a good collectible car and is the model 61 a good candidate for restoration?

A: It depends on why you're restoring it. If it's purely about the $$, I can tell you that demand for these older cars seems to be weakening, as the generation that knew and loved them is thinning out. The dwindling numbers of buyers will naturally soften the high-dollar prices these cars might otherwise have commanded a decade ago. Others in this thread have offered valid advice on restoration costs vs. their post-restoration value, so heed their wisdom on that.
Of course, most who embark on restorations of these beauties do so more out of love and respect for them than the post-restoration dollars they may bring. I'm keeping mine because it was my father's car when he was a young man, and that means something to me. He also wanted to restore it, but never did, so to honor him, I decided to finish the job. Having said that, I also don't want to invest SO deeply into it that I couldn't possibly come close to recovering most of what should I one day decide to sell it. So far, so good with this plan, but we'll see as the restoration progresses. In the end though, this is a question only you can answer.

Q: Are parts available for 346 flatheads? Any good sources for engines and trannys. I know the 346 powered a lot of WW II tanks etc., but are any surplus engines still around?  What would be a good starting range for price?

A: Yes, parts are available for these cars and for the 346 L-head engines. The best source I know of is Ed Cholakian at www.allcads.com (702) 454-1147, but other sources are out there, too. I ended up sourcing another 346 engine because restoring it was cheaper than rebuilding the original block, which was not only cracked, but had already been bored out to the maximum. I but mine for about $1,000, but it needed rebuilding, etc. I had an offer for a fully rebuild one for $4,000 that I could have had shipped out to me, but my dad wanted the cheaper option at the time, so we went that way. In hindsight, buying the rebuilt engine for $4,000 would have been the faster and cheaper option, but see what you can find and ask around.

Q: Any thoughts on how much an upholstery job would cost for front and rear in that original felt material. I know it is hard to give prices without seeing the car but any hints on things to look for when evaluating the car's value would be appreciated.

A: The cost to redo a cloth interior for these cars can vary widely. If you are in or near San Diego, I know of a shop in the region that can do an amazing job for a very reasonable price, but if you're located elsewhere, you'll most likely have to inquire locally.

I hope thees answers help you out a bit in deciding whether and how to move forward in the journey. I'm still working on this, but I am very much looking forward to enjoying it once I get to the finish line!

[Steve Passmore]

All good advice Mr Stalter but have you seen the age of this thread??   The car could be finished by now but we will never know as the original poster has never returned to the forum.

[harry s]

Steve, You make a good point about checking the dates on posts. I got as far as Joe Cerreti's name before I realized it was three years old. A lot of wasted brain power trying to come up with answers to the questions.      Harry