News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

Great News Re: Ethanol!

Started by Jon S, March 05, 2015, 10:20:47 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jon S

Federal, state legislation aims to curb ethanol use in gasoline!  Maybe we can enjoy our hobby without Vapor lock and other Ethanlo-related problems this year!

See more at: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2015/03/05/federal-state-legislation-aims-to-curb-ethanol-use-in-gasoline/?refer=news#sthash.KKk4T9BL.dpuf
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

TJ Hopland

From that article I'm not clear on what 'they' are trying to do.   Keep it capped at 10% and explore something other than corn?   Other than a couple states it does not look like they are trying to get rid of it.   Or maybe I just am not reading that article correctly?

I think my state is still holding the mandate at 10% but they keep trying for something like 30%.   I think its been 10% since they started it here in the early 90's.  Just last year they mandated bio blend for diesel,  think the minimum is like 5% but they allow up to 20% and don't have to specify what the blend is.   There are stickers on the pumps but I'm so used to seeing them I can't remember what they say. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

The Tassie Devil(le)

The best thing would be to go back to straight Petrol, and leave the Corn Fields for Food generation which in  turn would give a better use for the water used to grow the Corn.

Clean Water is needed for the survival of life as we know it.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

John Barry [CLC17027]

Let's not get too excited: yes, corn-based ethanol seems to be squarely in the crosshairs but cellulosic ethanol (say, from sugar cane waste or corn stover) is poised to take center stage.  Indeed, as I understand it, there's the first commercial-scale plant to yield fuel-grade ethanol from corn stover coming on line right about now in Iowa.  Thus, it seems that we're more or less stiffed with ethanol.

One has to wonder if the stands of pulpwood (or more accurately, trees intended for pulpwood) that aren't going to that purpose throughout parts of upper Michigan and Ontario might be used for a latter-day equivalent to naval stores production (think: turpentine).  Naval stores were essentially hydrocarbon products from conifers used in the days of sailing ships--and since the chemistry hasn't changed, I wonder if a turpentine variation / grade could extend gasoline supplies rather than ethanol?  We're talking a hydrocarbon here instead of an oxygenate, which would be far less hygroscopic.  The only kicker I can think of offhand is the presence of one or more double bonds in the hydrocarbon chain (as I recall), and I don't know what unsaturated hydrocarbons do in a gasoline engine.   Might well be worth investigating...
John Barry (CLC 17027)
Now-retired editor/Publisher of the Valley Forge Region newsletter, The Goddess
1940 La Salle series 50 four door sedan

Jay Friedman

I hope that legislation get passed.  Two points:

1. A friend who has worked in the petroleum industry told me that whatever the percentage of ethanol in gasoline stated on the pump, the actual percentage in the small batch that goes in your fuel tank can vary tremendously.  Apparently, ethanol is dumped into large quantities of gasoline and is not "mixed", so one batch can have a much greater percentage than another. 

2. My '49 doesn't run well on it and suffered vapor lock last summer for the first time on a tank of E10.  After that experience, I did some research on www.pure-gas.org, a web site which lists every gas station in the US that sells ethanol-free gasoline.  It lists them by state and town, as well as the type of fuel (octane, brand name, etc.).  There is also a map function so you can see where these places are if you don't recognize the address.  I found a station about 5 miles from my home (in Georgia).  Using the map function, I plotted out as many stations as I could along the way to the July Grand National in New York and made it all the way with only one "gap" with no ethanol-free stations between eastern PA and the Lake George area.

1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

CadillacMac

I haven't seen any problems with ethanol yet per se, other that noticing how much better my '65 runs with a tank of ethanol-free.  What is Vapor Lock?  What is happening to my engine over time, and can you reverse it with something like Sea Foam?
“Ambition is a dream with a V8 engine. Ain't nowhere else in the world where you can go from driving a truck to a Cadillac overnight.”
― Elvis Presley

mgbeda

Fuel pumps are designed to pump liquid, and won't pump a vapor.  Vapor lock is when the fuel in the line between the tank and the pump gets hot enough to vaporize, and then the pump can't pump and you have no gas in the engine.  It doesn't happen on cars with pumps in the gas tank (i.e. all cars in the last 25 years).  I've heard arguments that if your fuel system is in good shape it shouldn't happen ever, but I think there's no question it happens more with ethanol.

Ethanol also has about half the energy content as gasoline, so at 10% ethanol you'll get 5% less gas mileage, 5% less power, etc.  Computerized cars automatically adjust for this, but ours don't.

Lastly and most serious, ethanol eats away at the kind of rubber that used to be used for seals in fuel pumps, carburetors, etc.  Again modern cars use a different kind of rubber and it's not a problem.  It you have new fuel lines, fuel pump, and the carburetor has been rebuilt recently with new parts you are probably all right.  But generally getting everything replaced only happens on a well-restored car.

I think it's worth while to get 100% gas if possible.  Some lucky states seem to always sell both side-by-side (100% gas is more expensive and has lower octane).  I have to drive 15 miles to the nearest station that carries it (which, round trip, is about three gallons :-/).  Some people have no access to it at all.

I don't know if sea foam or any additive can compensate.  I'd like to hear if it can.

-mB
-Mike Beda
CLC #24610
1976 Sedan DeVille (Bessie)

Caddy Wizard

#7
Personally, I hope this ethanol-elimination legislation passes.  I seem to recall that it takes roughly about the equivalent of a gallon of petrol to make a gallon of ethanol from corn (by the time you take into account the petroleum-based fertilizer that is used, the fuel used in the tractors during the planting, growing, and harvesting, the fuel or energy used to convert the corn into ethanol, etc).  So if that is correct, it seems foolish to consume nearly as much energy as we reap from the corn.  Indeed, different studies have found that it takes almost as much energy to make the corn ethanol as the ethanol contains.  For example, in 1995 the USDA released a report stating that the net energy balance of corn ethanol in the United States was an average of 1.24 (about 80% of the energy of the ethanol was required to be consumed in producing it).  Sort of like burning a gallon of gasoline to pump and refine 1.25 gallons of gasoline.  Only worse, because the petroleum based fuels are not food, while corn IS food.  The world would be better off if that corn production were kept as food for people to eat, instead of being wasted on an inefficient production of a fuel additive that damages our old cars and our small engines (lawnmowers, weed trimmers, chainsaws, etc.).

I hope the legislation passes...
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

James Landi

http://nyti.ms/1AcDtj8

Following on Art's post above, today's NYTimes op ed addresses the same issue.   

35-709

#9
Here is another link to an Autoweek article by Jay Leno ---

http://autoweek.com/article/car-life/jay-leno-hates-ethanol
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

jpindusi

In speaking with a radiator rebuilder, he indicated that ethanol in gasoline makes the engine run hotter than regualr 100% gasoline.  Has anyone a reference for this?
Joe

TJ Hopland

It could.   You need more ethanol to make the same amount of power as gas.   On a more modern car with computer management its not a problem because the system can compensate by adding more fuel to maintain the desired mixtures.   If you don't have the ability to compensate the result would be you will go slightly lean and lean generally makes more heat.  70's cars would be the worst since they were originally tuned to be on the lean side to improve emissions and economy.   With just the theoretical 10% blend it really should not make a significant difference but at 30 or more years of age on the cars in question now there are a lot of possible variables.   You could be running lean to start with and the blend then could push you further from where you want to be.

My area started ethanol blends in the earlier 90's so its nothing new for some of us and we have managed to keep our old cars and small engines running.  It won't bother be if they get rid of it but its just not the end of the old engine world that the people that are just now getting it are making it out to be.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Caddysmack

You guys seem to know a lot about this so I have a question. (Pardon my potential ignorance here.) Isn't ethanol inefficient to produce and just a way to subsidize excess corn crop? I dated a biologist a while back that told me something along those lines I think.

Jon S

Latest News (From Hemmings):

Long-awaited Renewable Fuel Standard program revisions that the EPA released late last month indicate that while the federal agency has no plans to reverse corn ethanol’s presence in the U.S. fuel supply, EPA officials also don’t support blending as much total ethanol into fuel as it once did.

Expected in 2013, the proposed RFS volumes of renewable fuelsâ€"which include both advanced biofuels and corn-derived ethanolâ€"stipulate 15.93 billion total gallons for 2014, 16.3 billion gallons for 2015, and 17.4 billion gallons for 2016. The EPA derived all the 2014 volumes from actual amounts put onto the market last year.

Those numbers fall short of the total volumes the EPA initially proposed five years ago by 2.22 billion gallons for 2014 (12 percent), 4.2 billion gallons for 2015 (20 percent), and 4.85 gallons for 2016 (22 percent). Analysts point to a number of factors for the revised projections, including the effects of hitting the E10 blend wall, reduced demand for gasoline in general, and slower adoption of advanced biofuels (cellulosic biofuel, for example, comprised just 33 million gallons of the 2014 totals, versus a projected 1.75 billion gallons).

Though left unsaid in the recent announcement, the EPA’s revised standards would likely hinder further expansion of E15 blended fuel.

While the EPA noted that the proposed volumes “represent substantial growth over historic levels,” ethanol groups immediately criticized the proposal for not adhering to the 2010 predictions and accused the EPA of siding with oil companies. Renewable Fuels Association president Bob Dinneen called the proposals a step backward for the RFS.

Of note, the original 2010 proposal called for a reduction not just in the percentage but the total amount of corn-based ethanol from 2014 to 2016â€"11.65 billion gallons to 9.75 billion gallonsâ€"while the recently released proposal calls for a gradual increase in the total amount of corn-based ethanol over the same time period: 11.59 billion gallons in 2014 and 2015 and 11.99 billion gallons in 2016.

Meanwhile, legislative efforts to amend or abolish the RFS have stalled in Congress. H.R.704, which would prohibit the sale of E15 and essentially gut the post-2014 ethanol requirements in the RFS, has sat in committee since the bill was introduced in February. So has S.577, a bill that would modify the RFS to promote cellulosic and other biofuels over corn-based ethanol, also introduced in February.

At the state level, two anti-ethanol bills in Pennsylvania and Oregon have also sat in committee since their introductions, and a Texas anti-ethanol bill died in the legislature earlier this year, but a Hawaii bill that would do away with an E10 requirement in that state has passed both Hawaii’s senate and house of representatives and currently sits on Hawaii Governor David Ige’s desk. Passage would make Hawaii the second state after Florida to repeal a law mandating ethanol in fuel.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Bill Young

Good luck with liberal,socialist,communist New York State.

Ken Perry

Don't forget the Government subsidises corn,study up on that !Just like high fructose corn syrup was more trouble than it was worth  till they monipulated the corn game. Now it's killing our people. So many hidden agendas,like, less milage,so they make more money,helps get our old cars off the road. By the people for the people my A!@#$%^ss !!! Ken Perry   
Cadillac Ken

David Greenburg

Big Ag and its corn are killing us and our cars. I think the commies gave up and went home awhile back.  Meanwhile that high fructose syrup is doing the same thing to us as the ethanol is doing to our fuel systems.  I can put Sta-bil in my gas, but what do I put in my food?
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

TonyZappone #2624

One of our go to guys for carburetor rebuilds and engine overhauls in the Pierce club supports fabricating larger fuel lines.  By doing this, the volume is increased and vapor problems are reduced.  In fact he sells the proper fittings (and perhaps the lines themselves to effect this).
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle