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Re: 1959 generator rebuild - swapped to alternator

Started by MY 59, March 14, 2015, 05:45:20 AM

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MY 59

hello again fellow Cadillac friends :)

I am considering rebuilding my generator, just a minor kit, new bearings and brushes.
I have noticed the Gen light glows ever so slightly with accessories on, also that a blue glow/sparking can be seen in the back of the gen under high load so figure a freshen up cannot hurt.
output voltage seems OK once the reg kicks in.
any advice from experience, or is this just normal??

also, my car is factory AC but is missing the generator cooling elbow and ducting, how important is this IE should I source or fabricate something, any pics of the factory setup would be great

thanks as always
David Bone :)

1959 Cadillac Sedan Deville
1967 (aussie) ZA ford Fairlane

dplotkin

#1
Some sparking at the armature is normal but excessive sparking indicates worn brushes. The best test is to "full field" the generator, causing it to go to maximum output, and that will tell you a lot. Since you have an A/C car and presumably the double contact voltage regulator that came with all A/C cars, remove the F lead from the regulator. Place a volt meter across the battery and then ground the field lead for only as long as it takes to get a reading, 5 seconds or so is fine, no longer. While doing so rev the engine up above idle, say 1,200 RPM. You should see no less than 13.8 and preferably 14.2 volts steady, and if not, your generator is tired. This test takes the regulator out of the circuit.

Generator brushes are consumable items and their installation is rather easy. So regardless of the test outcome, feel free to change the brushes because if you are like I am, you will feel better.

The hose and duct was installed on A/C cars only. If you are using your A/C quite a bit, you should have that hose attached as the generator can overheat and start throwing solder. If you use the A/C infrequently or not at all, the missing hose is of little consequence.


Dan
56 Fleetwood Sixty Special (Starlight silver over Dawn Grey)
60 Buick Electra six window
60 Chrysler 300 F Coupe
61 Plymouth Savoy Ram Inducted 413 Superstock
62 Pontiac Bonneville Vista
63 Chevy Impala convertable
63 Ford Galaxie XL fastback
65 Corvette convertable 396
68 Chrysler New Yorker

76eldo

You may also want to make sure that you have the correct generator and regulator for your car.

The back side of a non AC generator does not have provisions for mounting the elbow. It's held on with a spring type wire that hooks into holes on the sides of the generator. The regulator is beefier as well to handle the extra amps that an AC generator puts out.


Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

J. Gomez

David,

One of the main issues with generators is they produce little output at idle speeds, so the battery provides all the electric power.

Your indication on the “Gen” light slightly glowing is normal when there is an electrical load, providing your battery is in good condition. Once you rev the engine at around 1200RPM is when the generator will start charging.

Since the “Gen” light is connected to a +12V source and to the “A” side of the generator, when there is no output from the generator there is a slight voltage difference between the two making the light to glow slightly. 

Folks who find this condition annoying have place a diode in series on the wire attached to the “A” terminal to stop this condition.

As for refreshing the generator it is straight forward by replacing the bearings and the brushes.

Once you have disassembled the unit you can do some testing and cleaning.

Check the field coils for grounds, using a volt-ohm meter on the ohm selector low scale place one test lead to the “F” terminal and the other to generator frame, it should be no reading “open”.

Check the field winding between the “A” and “F” terminal the meter should read close to zero for a good continuity on the coils.

Clean the commutator brass bars, I used 1000 sand paper dry first and wet with electrical contact cleaner on the final pass. Clean any residue from between the commutator bars once you finished, a used utility knife blade would do the trick, spray everything with contact cleaner.

Check the armature windings for continuity, place the ohm meter lead on one of the commutator bar and the other lead touch every bar you should have a reading of zero on the meter.

One additional item to check is the brushes spring tension, a weak one will cause excessive arching for the 110 2091 the tension should be 28oz.

Good luck..!
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

Jay Friedman

Jose,

Good write up.  If it were a 6 volt generator in a car with an ammeter on the dash (like my '49), would there be any significant differences in anything you wrote?

thanks,
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

J. Gomez

Quote from: Jay Friedman on March 14, 2015, 01:00:27 PM
Jose,

Good write up.  If it were a 6 volt generator in a car with an ammeter on the dash (like my '49), would there be any significant differences in anything you wrote?

thanks,

Jay,

Thanks you sir..!

In the case of the 110 2785 6V with two brush type it would be the same for the testing steps and the same 28oz for the spring tension.
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

David Greenburg

Jose:

Great tutorial!  My gen is behaving itself, but I'm going to file this away for when it starts acting up. 
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

MY 59

thanks for all the info :)

I will grab a kit and put it in, I do want one with new springs also, which seems harder to find.

I do use the AC quite a bit through summer, and will need to sort out something for the elbow and pipe, I really dont see where it could go as there isnt really a great deal of room in that area??
David Bone :)

1959 Cadillac Sedan Deville
1967 (aussie) ZA ford Fairlane

Jeff Wilk

David are you sure your gen is the correct one for AC cars?  Higher Amp output AND has the telltale tapered back end which is needed to accept the elbow. I have an elbow that I am putting up on ebay soon if you are looking for one.
"Impossible Only Describes The Degree Of Difficulty" 

Southern New Jersey

1959 Cadillac Fleetwood Sixty Special
1975 Eldorado Convertible (#12 made)
1933 Phaeton Chevrolet - "Baby Cadillac"
1933 Master Sedan Chevrolet - "Baby Cadillac"

SOLD
1976 Cadillac Mirage (factory authorized Pick-Up)
1958 Cadillac Sixty-Special
1958 Cadillac Sixty-Special
1958 Cadillac Sedan
1958 Cadillac Coupe Deville

35-709

#9
Pic. #1 & #2  What the generator cooling elbow looks like. 
Sorry for the picture quality when clicked on to enlarge.

Pic. #3  The fresh air hose connecting to the elbow.  Hard to see but there is a strap/bracket holding the hose up (on this car) so it does not hit the generator pulley.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

59-in-pieces

Dave,
Since you have photos of the elbow and the bale wire from G., I offer the following from my 59 Eldo.
Have fun,
Steve B
S. Butcher

David Greenburg

I'm getting ready to put this together on my car as well.  Been wondering about the correct hose, as what I have is plastic.  But it looks like it's the same stuff as the fabric covered defroster hose, only a smaller size (defroster is 2.5").
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

MY 59

well I just checked and my Gen has the tapered back, and I can see the slots for the clamp.
other than that I am missing everything! even the inlet/bracket near the battery.

I would say it was removed entirely somewhere along the line, as the AC was factory optioned so it would have had it originally

will need to source the bits, I will PM Jeff, and put a request in the wanted
David Bone :)

1959 Cadillac Sedan Deville
1967 (aussie) ZA ford Fairlane

59-in-pieces

Dave and David,
IMHO - I would caution you against plastic hoses.
The defrost hoses were fabric and not plastic, as well.
Although I would guess the plastic is cheaper, the fabric - as i recall - was easy enough to find, not too expensive, and safer.
Have fun,
Steve B.
S. Butcher

David Greenburg

Steve:

I have collected the parts, but not installed it, and thought the plastic hose was not correct.  I'm working inside my dash as I wait for new pad to come back, and have replaced those hoses with the fabric stuff, and you are right, it is easy enough to find.  Plastic hoses and heat make me nervous, especially under the hood. 
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

MY 59

Hi again,
finding it hard to source new brush springs without a rediculous shipping charge!
not sure if these will need replacing but would hate to pull the gen and find one snapped?? then have to wait weeks for delivery!
will check locally also, but if anyone has a known outlet and can provide please let me know
David Bone :)

1959 Cadillac Sedan Deville
1967 (aussie) ZA ford Fairlane

The Tassie Devil(le)

As for the springs, have a chat to an Auto Electrician.   He may have some floating around his shop.

If that doesn't work, contact the various Chevrolet clubs as there may be members that have removed their Generators and replaced them with Alternators.   These old removed ones would be a good source.

As the Generators are AC Delco parts, they should be the same internals for all GM products, and Australia had a good supply of these cars.   Plus, they seem to last longer on our roads than in USA.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

MY 59

So I pulled then Gen, and opened it up... it is a 35 amp, even thought the back is tapered and I can see a nook for the cooling elbow bale. part # is 35 amp, and there is heaps of evidence that the brushes have been arcing badly in their guides, lots of pitting and carbon.
even though the cars ID tag is factory AC and my car has correct everything, I think some parts may have been fleeced or replaced over the years :(

thinking of just doing a change out to an alternator as to import the 45 amp gen will be $$$$
David Bone :)

1959 Cadillac Sedan Deville
1967 (aussie) ZA ford Fairlane

n2caddies

Hi David
Is there any chance a knowledgeable local repair shop my have the parts that may interchange?
Randy
Randy George CLC# 26143
1959 Series 62 Convertible
1960 Series 62 Convertible
1964 Deville Convertible
2015 SRX

MY 59

#19
very doubtful, but I will ask the question.
would like to keep it original if possible :(
David Bone :)

1959 Cadillac Sedan Deville
1967 (aussie) ZA ford Fairlane