News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

Key will not lock or unlock driver side door of 1941 Cadillac Series 63

Started by Don Wilson, April 04, 2015, 06:07:07 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Don Wilson

 My key will turn the lock cylinder when not installed, but when installed will not turn the mechanism at all, as if  the mechanism, itself, is seized. The other door works fine. I cannot really remember if this lock ever really worked since I bought the car 5 years ago, I've been living with it so long. I would remove the door latching mechanism, but would welcome any advice any of you might have before attempting that. I have had the inside door panel off a few times to investigate how the mechanism might be removed and it looks obvious, but I'd like to know of any pitfalls I might encounter before starting. I also have problems getting the metal window frame back on without scaring it.
I am a happy owner of a beautiful 1941 Cadillac Series 63 which I purchased in 2009. I have visited your forum a few times this year and found some very useful technical information just by doing that, but still have questions unanswered. I have also read questions on the forum that for which I think I can provide answers, I also have some questions about the terminology used in this profile form.

Steve Passmore

Sounds like its seized to me Don.    I can't remember on my 41s if the window has to be removed to get the mechanism out or not. Perhaps someone else can chime in?
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Paul Phillips

Don
One other area to possibly check is if the interior lock button will lock and unlock the door. If it will not, then the common element is the latch mechanism. It could be as simple as being gummed up and needing cleaning & lubrication. If the interior button works, then you need to look for binding in the relay link rod, or in the part of the latch that connects to the relay link. 

I have my 41 60S doors still apart and could take pix if that would help. The 60S is slightly different than the Fisher body cars, but may be close enough to help.

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)
1937 Packard Super 8 Convertible Victoria
1910 Oakland Model 24 Runabout

Don Wilson

Thanks Paul,
I appreciate you responding. Maybe the mechanisms are different, but not so much as to not help me understand how the key should actually cause the latch to lock or unlock. Good suggestion about the latch button; it does work the lock from inside the car as it should. On the series 63, when the door is locked the handle may be turned, but it does not pull the latching "bolt" back; the outdoor handle is simply disengaged. I assume all of our old Cadillacs are supposed to work like this. The key mechanism is definitely seized, and I'm afraid that if I put too much pressure on the part that the key is supposed to turn without taking the latch out to see what is going on and free it up with some lubricant, I might actually break a good part. One thing I would really like to know before proceeding is if removal of the latch is as simple as it looks from behind the door panel or not. Since your doors are still apart, maybe you could tell me that? Since everything else about the latch works, I could still put up with this, but if the other door lock stops working I could really be in trouble.
                Thanks again,
                            Don
I am a happy owner of a beautiful 1941 Cadillac Series 63 which I purchased in 2009. I have visited your forum a few times this year and found some very useful technical information just by doing that, but still have questions unanswered. I have also read questions on the forum that for which I think I can provide answers, I also have some questions about the terminology used in this profile form.

Paul Phillips

Don
Here are a couple pix of the 60S mechanism, both 'inside' and 'outside' views. The mechanism is in the 'locked' position in these views. The belcrank that is wired loosely to it is part of the interior manual linkage. The lock cylinder relay link connects in the cutout at the upper left.  The interior lock and lock cylinder portions are hard connected by the flat bar seen insidious the reverse view.  If your lock cylinder is frozen when installed, it may be that the relay link/rod is bound somehow within the door or is in the wrong place.

If you have a service manual, the lock is best covered in the 1939 Body section.

Hope this helps.

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)
1937 Packard Super 8 Convertible Victoria
1910 Oakland Model 24 Runabout

Don Wilson

Paul,  Thank you for the pictures of your door latch mechanism. It has taken a while for me to digest what I'm seeing here, but think I'm pretty close to understanding it. I can print out your comments about the pictures, but can't  print the pictures themselves. The pictures appear to be of a right hand door latch, and that is OK because it would simply be the reverse of the left door latch. The top picture is looking at the latch from inside the car right side. The lower picture is looking at the latch from outside the car, but is flipped upside down, and I'm pretty sure I understand how the bell crank works with the latch button, and believe that the small hole on the other  arm of the bell crank is where the lower end of the round shaft to the inside lock button is inserted. In the lower picture I see a small hole behind a large odd shaped hole in a flat pivot lever connected to a flat link apparently meant to engage or disengage the latch bolt by something rotating within that odd shaped hole. From what I can see through the hole for the lock cylinder of my car, there is a round part, maybe 0.5 inch in diameter that accepts the lock cylinder shaft per square cross section with one corner cut off that I mentioned in my earlier posts wouldn't rotate as I know it should. Are you sure that you don't also have such a piece that is not in your pictures? Thanks again for your patience. I was interrupted in the middle of this with a long phone call.       Don
I am a happy owner of a beautiful 1941 Cadillac Series 63 which I purchased in 2009. I have visited your forum a few times this year and found some very useful technical information just by doing that, but still have questions unanswered. I have also read questions on the forum that for which I think I can provide answers, I also have some questions about the terminology used in this profile form.

Paul Phillips

Don
I think you are fairly close in your understanding. I will try tomorrow to arrange the lock cylinder in the correct relative orientation and take more pictures.  In general, the relay rod from the lock cylinder has some free play and lives in the 'neutral' part of the opening in the latch. Only when the lock cylinder is rotated with the key does the relay rod engage the latch and slide the mechanism up or down.

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)
1937 Packard Super 8 Convertible Victoria
1910 Oakland Model 24 Runabout

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

Don,
Paul is trying to help as he usually does. But... his car is a 60S. His  inside lock actuator is a horizontal slider. Your car is a vertical button. Different action to accomplish the same task. Try the button action on your RH door. The action on your LH door should be the same. Lock cylinder out on the LH door. Also the inside door handle should unlock it. Hope I'm clear.
HTH, Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

Don Wilson

Paul & Bob:
Thanks Paul, but you don't have to go to the trouble of making new pictures; I figured out how the latching mechanisms were oriented in the door by looking at the latching bolt. The mechanism of how the link moved by the pivot rod (with the odd shaped hole) finally engages or disengages the latch bolt to/from the door handle will still be hidden. No matter what that action is, it appears that I'll just have to remove the latch from the door to free up whatever is binding. Now, what I'd really like to know is if taking out bolts/screws holding the latch and exterior handle in the door is likely to let something drop inside the door unexpectedly; same goes for linkage from the inside handle, and are there any warnings you or Bob can give to prevent this from happening. I already am warning myself to use a magnetized screwdriver on the set screw for the door handle. Is the window mechanism going to be in my way? The Fisher Body Manual that I bought when I first bought the car is absolutely useless regarding any attachments to the body such as this.

Bob, I appreciate your chiming in. Paul has been very helpful; he warned me that there might be differences between the 60 Special and the Series 63. Thanks also for mentioning that the inside handle, if working correctly, will unlock the door when locked. I really couldn't recall actually checking this so I just went to the car to try it. It works properly.

I know I must sound like a wimp about pulling the latch out of the door, and I guess that I am, but I've gotten myself in trouble before when I tackle something for which I don't know the necessary precautions. When I finally get it done, I'll let you know what I find out.
                                                                                        Don
I am a happy owner of a beautiful 1941 Cadillac Series 63 which I purchased in 2009. I have visited your forum a few times this year and found some very useful technical information just by doing that, but still have questions unanswered. I have also read questions on the forum that for which I think I can provide answers, I also have some questions about the terminology used in this profile form.

Steve Passmore

Don't worry Don, nothings going to drop on you, the opposite probably and anyway, you can get your hand down inside the door.    The latch bolts go into captivated nuts and the handle strap is on the outside of the door skin behind the panel so you will have to release the handle transmission.    I'm sure the window winder will not be in the way but I just cant remember if the window channel on that side will prevent the latch from coming out, you may have to remove that too.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Don Wilson

Thanks Steve for the reassurance that any nuts involved on the inside of the door won't disappear into a dark void that I can't access. I still will post what I find out when I finally get this done.
                                                                                                                          Don
I am a happy owner of a beautiful 1941 Cadillac Series 63 which I purchased in 2009. I have visited your forum a few times this year and found some very useful technical information just by doing that, but still have questions unanswered. I have also read questions on the forum that for which I think I can provide answers, I also have some questions about the terminology used in this profile form.

Paul Phillips

Don
The fussiest thing I found was getting the tapered screw loose that holds the exterior door handle in the latch mechanism. It is accessed via a hole in the latch side of the door itself. I suppose it could get away from you, but replacements are available if it does ( or if you have to drill it out). Memory is it is 8-32 thread behind the tapered head.

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)
1937 Packard Super 8 Convertible Victoria
1910 Oakland Model 24 Runabout

harvey b

When you get it out,i would put it in a bucket of oil and let it soak for a couple of days,that will insure it is lubricated well,these things seize up fom lack of use,also spray some penetrating oil on them too,when you have the lock cylinder in your hands that is the best time to try and work it back and forth,it will work so smooth when you are done you will want to do them all ;)  Good Luck
Harvey Bowness

Don Wilson

Thanks, Harvey. I do plan to soak it, spray it, and anything else I can do with penetrating oil when I get it out. And thanks to all the rest of you for the help and encouragement. I'll be back later on with the news that it works, and let you know what else I'm doing with this baby!
                                                                                          Don
I am a happy owner of a beautiful 1941 Cadillac Series 63 which I purchased in 2009. I have visited your forum a few times this year and found some very useful technical information just by doing that, but still have questions unanswered. I have also read questions on the forum that for which I think I can provide answers, I also have some questions about the terminology used in this profile form.

ebuliavac

Hi Don,

How did it go?  My locks are stuck on my 1940 6227C.  I bought this latch from a salvage yard parting out a car, because my driver door handle was not operating the latch.  The Fisher body manual for 1939 and 1940 is very detailed regarding the locks, and this one may be similar to yours.  I am guessing your car is Fleetwood body, also newer, so both documentation and parts could be quite different, but hoping this helps.

I am trying to decide whether to replace the passenger latch.  I haven't gotten the door panels off yet (car is in a shop).  The pen in the picture is pointed toward the lever to which the inside locking knob is connected.  On this latch, I can easily work the lever with my thumb.  The key lock goes into the hole in the lower left, and operates the locking lever as well, which is at the bottom of the mechanism.  I'm uploading images of the locked and unlocked positions.  In locked (with pen), lever on bottom of latch can be seen pointed down to the right.  The key lock has a shroud around the hole with tabs that rotate the lever.

I hope this helps.  I don't know why my locks won't turn; lack of use, minor corrosion?  I'm hoping some lubrication will work on the passenger side.  It seems I am good to go on driver's side provided the connecting rods aren't bent, or some other nuisance.

Ed Buliavac
1940 6227C
1996 Fleetwood Brougham