points or Electronic ignition?

Started by houstonlayne, April 19, 2015, 09:39:13 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

bcroe

Quote from: m-mmanSince my 1929 341B has a dual point distributor so that each set of points
can operate just 4 cylinders on each bank of the V-8 the use of a pertronix system is out.

You must have 2 ignition coils?  Interesting that they did that, I see it as admission
that a single 6V system just can't keep up with the rpms and 8 cylinders.  Eventually
they needed 12V systems to try and keep up; some of the performance versions used
dual points in parallel to handle it.  Bruce Roe

joeceretti


m-mman

No in 1929 there was just 1 coil but 2 points with just 4 operating lobes in the distributor. Timing is achieved by moving and synchronizing the points then moving the cam on the distributor shaft after lining up the timing marks on the flywheel..

Some cars like the 38-40 V-16 used 2 distributors and coils (and 2 carburetors) all functioning like 2 straight 8s joined at he crankshaft.

I think some of this craziness had more to do with learning the best way to design a system. An engine with one distributor using a cam lobe for each cylinder and having the timing set by twisting the distributor ended up being the best method only after a lot of experimentation.
1929 341B Town Sedan
1971 Miller-Meteor Lifeliner ambulance
Other non-Cadillac cars
Near Los Angeles, California

CLC #29634

Jason Edge

#23
Here's my take on it:
- I installed the Petronix Ignitor II on my 1964 CDV about 10 years ago and ran the black "stock looking" hotter Flame Thrower II coil with zero issues for 7 years.
3 Years ago I upgraded to the Petronix Ignitor III and the Flamethrower III coil and have had zero issues.
- I have never kept a spare set of points nor have I needed a spare set of points
- I like the way it all tucks under the stock distributor cap and looks original. I have judged the past 2 GN's and we were not removing distributor caps to see what lurked underneath.
- I would believe a new set of points with dwell correctly set will give "close to" same performance as the Ignitor II/III. With the Flamethrower II/III higher voltage coil the car does seem to have more power and think that coupled with the Ignitor II/III gives it the performance advantage for anyone wanting to tweak their ignition performance.
- In 10 years I have installed Pertronix units (II then III) for a total time commitment of about 1 hr.  I Have not had to worry about cleaning, replacing or adjusting points once.
- I am gradually restoring most of the "look" of my 64 CDV to original but I will be hard pressed to remove the Pertronix. It has worked very well for me.

For those interested we keep a breakdown of the differences of the Petronix I, II, and III setup on our 1963/64 Chapter Website at this link: http://6364cadillac.ning.com/profiles/blogs/pertronix-comparison
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge@nc.rr.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2012 SRX Performance Edition - Crystal Red
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue

Jon S

Jason -

We could debate this issue till the cows come home.  With quality points/condenser proper dwell and timing, all of our cars should run exceptionally!  I know mine runs beautifully and at idle you could place a glass of water on the air cleaner and not see a ripple.  By the mid-1950's, the engineers at GM got it right and the added window for dwell adjustment was the icing on the cake.

I have friends with both horror and wonderful stories about Petronix units and on my Lincoln Forum there has been much mixed discusion.  If Petronix works for you - great; points/condenser perform just fine for me.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Jason Edge

#25
Jon, Both have worked for me. I grew up with points ignition.  In fact I ran a dual point setup on my low 12 second qtr mile street/strip 68 Camaro from my youth.  Dial it in and you could get some great performance... but that usually meant some quality time on the Sun Machine and dwell meter in hand the day before.  There was nothing negative about points stated, except that you have to replace and adjust them which I actually find rewarding if I am in the mood and have the time, and as you stated a finely tuned Cadillac runs great. But in 50 years, there is technology that can make it run better.  Regardless if it is fuel delivery or ignition, improvements have come a long way and for me and the selling point (no pun intended) is that it all goes under the original cap unseen and looks original.  I am a fan of originality, but still have a hot rod heart and I can feel the difference with the Pertronix III setup.  On my 64 CDV there was nothing wrong with the regular hypoid rear end, but the first time I brought in a parts car with the limited slip/controlled differential it went under the car, as I love those little 2 tire fish tail burnouts when the "urge" hits me! LOL
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge@nc.rr.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2012 SRX Performance Edition - Crystal Red
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue

Jon S

Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

bill06447

An advantage electronic has over points, is you don't have to keep adjusting electronic ignitions as you would with points to compensate for wear. And no more inadvertently cooking a set of points by leaving the key "on" with the engine not running. Also, an electronic igniter is more forgiving if there is some play in the distributor.

Bill


bcroe

Quote from: m-mmanNo in 1929 there was just 1 coil but 2 points with just 4 operating lobes in the distributor. Timing is achieved by moving and synchronizing the points then moving the cam on the distributor shaft after lining up the timing marks on the flywheel..

Some cars like the 38-40 V-16 used 2 distributors and coils (and 2 carburetors) all functioning like 2 straight 8s joined at the crankshaft.

I think some of this craziness had more to do with learning the best way to design a system. An engine with one distributor using a cam lobe for each cylinder and having the timing set by twisting the distributor ended up being the best method only after a lot of experimentation. 

I think using 2 complete 8 cylinder ignitions on a V16 avoided a bunch of custom parts;
I would have done the same.  If the 29 only has one ign coil and 4 lobes, I'll guess they
take turns closing and then opening to fire the coil. 

As I have said, points will do you for a few miles a year at moderate speeds in good
weather.  None of those things applied to the half million miles I drove points cars in
the 60s and 70s.  I was so tired of cylinders missing when the carb was wide open,
changing points 4 times a year, changing everything else frequently so the weak ign
didn't get even weaker, ign washed out in severe wet conditions or affected by frost;
extra drain on the weak generator.  I built an electronic ign on my first 62, which
really helped; kept experimenting till HEI came out.  Bruce Roe

TJ Hopland

I would imagine Huston has one of those pesky job things that keeps him from working on the car all the time.   Maybe we will get more info or an update this weekend. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Blade

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on April 19, 2015, 11:34:17 AM
... after a couple of significant downpours where water on the road was great enough to get into the distributor and cause problems. 

Greg: try some silicone on the bottom of the distributor cap, did the trick for me.

TJ Hopland

Too much advance in the timing?   That can cause a kick back during starting and do that to a starter. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Rdtreur

You need to find  (or fabricate) a starter support bracket . If you place that bracket on the front side of the starter to the engine block , it would not "twist" under the starting load when the timing is off and break the nose.
R.D. Treur
Past caddy’s:
‘68 convertible ‘70 Eldorado,  ‘75 sedan, ‘75 Fleetwood