Parade Woes.......

[Jeff Wilk]

Need some assistance in diagnosing what may be the cause of getting stuck at Parade today.  59 Fleetwood ran great for 30 mins in parade.  Parade speed the while way in 85 degree heat. I have an aftermarket temp gauge in the car and it ran about 190-200 the whole parade. Parked for the ceremony and gauge was at 195. Came back 25 mins later and car would turn over fine start the die out. Did that until battery died. Took iff air cleaner and saw percolating gas in gas filter bowl which was at best a third full. Right at bottom of filter. Got a jump start but same fuel problem.

Now sitting in side if road. Waiting for all to cool down. Ether on its way as is gas and tools. Any ideas?

[Scot Minesinger]

Replace the condenser if it is not already electronic ignition.  They make them cheap (prone to failure) so buy three at auto parts store to get home, and then get a good one plus spare.  This is an easy and cheap solution - if newly replaced it could have still failed.  the starts and dies quickly is the symptom of this problem.

It is presumed that you ruled out vapor lock, as that would seem most obvious unless it is an a/c car with a return line back to tank.

[Jeff Wilk]

Ok. Back home. Car sat for an hour in side of road. Noah came back with can of ether and gas. We jumped battery. Sprayed ether. Cranked engine. Fired instantly an stopped. Did it again and fuel bowl filled up and car started and ran fine. Temp down to 160. Drove for 15 mins at 40-50 mph. Temp stayed around 165. Car ran smooth as glass.  Car does have A/C.

Whats the problem here?  Plain old too hot engine and vaporized gas?

[TJ Hopland]

Whats the problem here?  Plain old too hot engine and vaporized gas?

That would be my guess.     Do you know if you have ethanol in your gas?   Most places in the USA do have it now and many states don't require it to be labeled as such at the pump.   The presence of ethanol seems to aggravate vapor lock.

I presume this has a solid fan vs some sort of clutch?

Till I went EFI I had an electric fan installed in front of the radiator hooked up to a mechanical timer.   Pretty much any time I shut it off I would wind the timer up to about 10 minutes.  That keep enough air moving under the hood to keep things under control.  I would also run it when stuck in traffic on a hot day.   

[35-709]

Also agree, sounds like vapor lock.

[chrisntam]

If it's any consolation, the parade I was in today, a mid 50's t-bird overheated and pushed out a lot of it's coolant.  It was a slow roll for about 45 minutes, just idling.   My '75 Olds 88 handled it just fine, water temps were just under 200, it was about 75 degrees outside.

My Cadillac is getting the interior worked on.   

[beastly beauties]

Sounds like vapor lock with the percolating you mentioned. I would not rule out a bad ignition coil. I have had several occasions similar to your symptoms and had a coil problem. Car will run till it gets hot, and that could be a while. I would just replace one anyway. Cheap insurance. You will need something around that fuel line close to the heat source. There are some good wraps on the market that will work well. Years back I have witnessed a friend using a number (5-10) of wooden clothespins on the fuel line near the engine block where the source was and it worked that way for him for many years. He traveled the country in that class "c" Ford motorhome without another vapor lock problem.  Good Luck,     D. Symonds

[76eldo]

These cars usually run pretty cool but in a low speed crawl there is not much air coming through the grille to cool things down.

The only way to know if it's vapor lock is to have a can of ether handy and if it spits and coughs when you spray some ether in the carb then it's fuel related.  Sounds pretty obvious but that's one way to check.

If the car is vapor locking I would think an electric fuel pump would help.

Brian

[Scot Minesinger]

D Symonds has a point, could be ignition problem - nice pun.  Anyway the condenser (and coil) are inexpensive and easy, consider replacing them.  It is almost easier to replace then to determine with absolute certainty that they are OK, especially the condenser.

Another club member wrote "75% (or a significant percentage anyway) of my fuel/carb problems are electrical".  I suffered an ignition problem that seemed like it had to be fuel related and only acted up when real hot.  Took like a year to figure it out.

[Alex-57]

Before I decided to throw my 57 under the knife I had the same problem for a while.. car drove great ... sat in traffic for a while it'd start to spudder and then die. Or, drive about a half hour , park, eat and then try to start it, nothing. Ether worked, dumping gas down the carb worked. Had pertronix in it and rebuilt the old carburetor twice. It came down to being the fuel pump. Got a new one, slapped it in and no longer became stranded repeatedly.  Then I replaced the carb later with a modern one and it worked even better. The old carb just didn't preform correctly. Both my friend and I thought it may have just been old and out of tolerance. I still have the original carb, but I'm not going to mess with that anytime soon.

Maybe that will help you get down the path on what to investigate. Good Luck.

Alex

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

The problem you describe is likely caused by the poor quality of today's
gasoline which contains ethanol and no longer contains tetraethyl lead.

Both of these changes have significantly lowered the boiling point of
gasoline which leads to vapor lock.  I have discussed this issue many
times on the forum in the past.

One solution is to purchase gasoline without ethanol -- it is available
in most states if you know where to look.  Some of these stations also
sell leaded gasoline which is 110 octane, non ethanol.  I found such a
station here in PA just 15 minutes from my house.  Since I started using
this my '55 Eldorado runs better, idles better and performance is noticeably
better.

Here is a website to help locate a station near you that has this gasoline
available:

http://www.buyrealgas.com/states.html

Good luck!

Mike

[curly]

I would think that since you have  return line to the tank that vapor lock wouldn't be a problem.  The one time I capped the return line on my 59 is the only time I ever had vapor lock.  I used to live in the Az desert (Yuma  ) and never had a problem with vapor lock, running the A/C or not. That was over 20 years of driving it down there.

I would suggest you blow some compressed air through the return line to ensure that it isn't clogged.  It may be a long shot, but easy enough to try.
T Lewis

[Scot Minesinger]

Agree with T Lewis, my Cadillac with a/c and return line never vapor locked.  Driving home from GN2013 caught in the NJ turnpike Bridge - gate thing for 3 hours (traveling a total of about 12 miles) at 2pm in bright sunshine, 95'F, no issues.  Vapor lock does not seem to happen with return fuel lines.  Had a lot of nice conversations with occupants of cars in next lane over to ease boredom.

Also, blaming the gasoline of today is unlikely the problem, given that it has had this same blend for years and it was not changed yesterday.  I agree the gasoline of yesterday was better for our cars, but it is not available anymore and we need to adapt if we want to enjoy driving our cars.  Have not really done anything except Pertronix and my Caddy runs fine on the gas of today (timing is set at factory spec).

Sounds like ignition issue more than fuel, but acts like fuel problem.

[TJ Hopland]

The return line got restricted on my 73.   Not sure how.   I'm running EFI and was running rich all the time.  Rebuilt the regulator and still could not get the pressure down.   Ended up swapping between the vapor line and return line to get things back working again.   Its a clean rust free car that has been regularly used most of its life so don't know how it happened. 

[Jay Friedman]

I agree with Mike Josephic that it may merely be due to ethanol and the absence of lead in the fuel.  My '49 started doing the same thing a few years ago after ethanol became common when going slowly in traffic or a parade in hot weather.  It hasn't happened since I switched to ethanol-free gas. Luckily there's a station near my house that sells it.

Another web site that lists and has maps showing stations that sell it is www.pure-gas.com

[James Landi]

I have a thermostatically (and adjustably) controlled electric fan (stays on even when engine is off)... as well as an "override" function in the car ( so I can run it at any time), I have a new radiator, and electronic ignition... I use an electric fuel pump, with a Carter carb,and a fuel return line--- I use Marvel oil in the gasoline mix ( seems to help a lot)... I have an in car temperature gauge. with a 160 thermostat. I have set the idle up to around 800 rpms, so when hot, I don't touch the gas pedal... STILL:  Sometimes it takes more than the expected "crank time" to start...sometimes it starts in the first two or three seconds . I can say that when I upped the idle, added Marvel, and I didn't need to touch the accelerator, my anxiety level went way down, because it consistently starts much more quickly.  I haven't checked the voltage to the ignition when cranking.  This can be a very real issue, as a minor drop in voltage, caused by a hot engine and laboring starting can defeat the entire start process when the car is hot. 

[TJ Hopland]

Bumping up the idle speed for a parade is a good thought.    One way to do it would maybe be to unplug the AC compressor clutch and set the climate control to low AC.   Low so the blower does not run but that should engage a high idle.   Something like a wooden spring loaded cloths pin clipped on the throttle linkage could even work. 

[James Landi]

THat's a brilliant solution... an a easy fix for hot days--- perhaps the addition of an a/c clutch switch in the dash...

[Jeff Wilk]

Guys. Thanks for all of the ideas and things to look for.  I'm still thinking vapor lock due to the percolating fuel in the fuel bowl and then it being either drawn down or boiled out to a point below the bottom of the filter pick up.  Once the engine cooled for about an hour, a quick two sprays of ether got it started quickly and the fuel bowl filled up and the car kept running.  This weekend I will carefully check out the return vent line and see about blowing it out back to the tank as well.  It is a new coil and condenser already, and when the car is running it is so smooth you cant even tell it is idling so I don't think timing is an issue.  As for ethanol in the gas.....yep......can't find any stations in NJ that have gas without it.

I will post back with what I find out this weekend.

Love the addition of an electric fan idea when not showing the car too......any specific sources out there?

Jeff & Noah

[James Landi]

Purchased mine at Napa with an adjustable thermostatic controller... You'll need to figure out a way to mount it on the front side of your a/c condenser.(these fans come with easy mounting hardware).. there's usually a bunch of space behind the grill ... you can get one large one or a couple of smaller ones.   As mentioned, a 15 amp toggle switch mounted on your dash with some kind of indicator lamp will provide you with additional control.  You also might try mixing some Marvel oil with your gas.  Seems to have a positive effect on reducing the boiling... As mentioned, no one appears to have the "quick fix" as far as I can tell, and sometimes, we think we have the "cause," but it can be several issues plaguing your car.