A slippery slope.

[Davidinhartford]

I just re-read Bill Andersons story in the July Self Starter.   

If the club is going to embrace resto-mods and chopped, slammed and Donk wheeled Cadillacs
and lower judging standards for them at the Grand Nationals then that is not preserving the Marque.

I know many young people who like stock classics.  So if this thinking is to get new, young members
then this is a big mistake.   

The best thing about a GN is you are parked amongst classics, not cruise night low riders.
They have their own clubs.     

And I guess I'll have to find a new one.

[chrisntam]

Are they trying to "grow" the business?

I can't imagine the "resto-mods and chopped, slammed and Donk wheeled Cadillacs" crowd would want to hang with a bunch of predominantly "older" folks at GN...........

chris.

[Dan LeBlanc]

The best advice I can give here would be that if you have any concerns on the matter would be to contact Bill Anderson directly or your regional VP.  Any time I've emailed Bill for something, I've always received a reply and the same goes for the VP's. 

The club officers always try to do what's best for the club.  If members don't speak up about the direction, we can only assume no news is good news and that they're doing the right thing.  Feedback from the membership is crucial in any policy change.

[Davidinhartford]

   If members don't speak up about the direction, we can only assume no news is good news and that they're doing the right thing.  Feedback from the membership is crucial in any policy change.

Exactly.   And the first thing I looked for was a way to write an editorial comment in the Self Starter.    There is none. 

That is what I like about Hemmings classic Car magazine.   Plenty of opportunity to write a published comment.   The only outlet we have here at the CLC
to post a public comment is here.   The CLC  Facebook page is littered with resto-mod and custom photos so no sympathy from those who frequent there unfortunately.

[Tpicks55]

Im relatively new to the club but what brought me here is that this is a classic club.  Keeping the car as close as it can be to factory.  Im not totally in favor to heavy modded cars but I think they should be on their own.  Different judging apart from the classics.  Just my opinion.

[Davidinhartford]

The clubs old policy did not prohibit ownership or display at meets, but they were subject to the same judging rules as everyone else.

So non factory changes were deductions.   This pretty much discouraged them.

This new policy is like inviting ants to a picnic.

[Dan LeBlanc]

Exactly.   And the first thing I looked for was a way to write an editorial comment in the Self Starter.    There is none. 

That is what I like about Hemmings classic Car magazine.   Plenty of opportunity to write a published comment.   The only outlet we have here at the CLC
to post a public comment is here.   The CLC  Facebook page is littered with resto-mod and custom photos so no sympathy from those who frequent there unfortunately.

I've seen letters to the editor before.  Send an email to Steve Stewart.  His contact information is usually in there.

[Josh Noiles]

I just turned 28 on July 7, and my younger brother is 25. Our mutual dear friend with a similar love for Cadillacs is 26. We all prefer bone-stock factory-spec restorations, and even more so: unrestored, preserved originals.

I believe as time goes on, more young people will appreciate these cars for what they can be when properly saved and shown: the closest thing we have to time machines. They are history on wheels. This club's emphasis on posterity is what drew me to it.

We can't all afford to make the cars we find and save 100% perfect, concours or factory correct: but doing our best to follow what the original designers and engineers is important to their legacy, even if they are works-in-progress, or if we have to part with the cars after saving them, to people who can afford to do them properly. I'm not dumping on the work and talent/artistry that goes into to some of these non-stock creations, especially on cars that are very far gone. Just bringing the fact that there are intelligent, enthusiastic young people out there that prefer, love and *live for* original cars!

Just wanted you to know that this matters to some young people out there! We don't all enjoy customs and modified / rodded vehicles. Any preserved or original vehicle is extremely appealing to me, Cadillac or not. There's something truly special about letting this class of car transport you to another era.

We all live in Nova Scotia, and I wish we were closer and more central to the bulk of this club's activiry and members. We are attempting to be a beacon up here where most shows we attend are saturated with modified, "restored" vehicles whose owner's attention to detail or preservation of original design / specifications seem to be near totally lacking. The few originals (unrestored or restored), we see are rare gems indeed. Even some of the owners of those original unrestored cars openly APOLOGIZE to us about the condition of the vehicles, making it a point to tell my young friends and I that they soon plan to modify or restore it / hot rod it. Maybe in an effort to seem "cool?" They are shocked when we tell them "for god's sake don't touch it!" Someone has to carry a torch to remedy this. Shouldn't the CLC be doing their part?

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

David,

I completely sympathize and agree with your sentiments. The difficultly lies in the many coachbuilt Cadillacs that had been produced throughout the years. From a Murphy bodied V 12 of the 30s to a late 1970s H & E Convertible or Sedan deVille with a 3" stretch - such cars - technically - all fall under the modified category and the lines between "modified" and "correct" become extremely difficult to establish by any objective definition.

In any case, I wouldn't fret too much about it as cars falling into this category have specific judging criteria that has been designed including whether modifications are period appropriate, tastefully done and the quality of workmanship. 

Thanks.

[Dan LeBlanc]

I can see the merits of both arguments - being inclusive and being exclusive.  What the correct answer is, I don't know.

[Jay Friedman]

When it was first proposed that the CLC accept "modified" Cadillacs about 15 years ago, I wrote a letter to The Self-Starter opposing this modification (pun??) of the club's objectives.  In my letter, which appeared in the September 2000 issue, I cited the CLC constitution, policies and judging standards, all of which stated in one way or another that modifying a Cadillac "are not within the original objectives" of the club.  I went on to say there are a number of clubs which cater to modifiers, "but the rest of us....should follow our club's philosophy on this subject and leave the street rodders to pursue their own interests". 

However, my opinion was met with disdain.  In a subsequent issue of the SS, a letter from a supporter of modified Cadillacs dismissed my viewpoint rather vociferously and since it seemed that his opinion was shared by the powers-to-be in the club, I said no more.  A cursory reading of the CLC constitution, by-laws, etc. in my 2015 International Directory seems to indicate that they have been changed since 2000 to reflect an acceptance of modified Cadillacs.  I would therefore caution those among us who do not believe in "street-rodded" Cadillacs that you risk being vilified as a "purist" and that, in any case, the decision has already been made.

[gary griffin]

Yesterday I painted the correct curved dip stick tube because I learned the straight one on my car was not correct  and today I am searching for the correct hose clamps and exhaust hangers.

Next task is to reinstall the wiring harness that I removed to install the correct firewall pad.

I assume you can tell my position on this matter by reading the comments above.

Also I have a friend who purchased a highly modified 1942 fastback with a modern interior and running gear including AC, power disc brakes, power windows and seats etc, but from 10 feet away it looks bone stock.  Someone put $80K into it and my friend bought it for $20K. He would have preferred stock but this is what he could afford. He will not join the club because he feels he would not be welcome.

[Dan LeBlanc]

It's a double-edged sword Gary.

There are things I would have to do to my car to do better in class judging in the CLC and AACA, but I refuse to do it because

1.  It's an unrestored survivor
2.  Doing so would hurt its preservation
3.  I like it that way

On the other side of the coin, I've seen some nice cars, such as your friend's car that I wouldn't mind looking at or even have in my garage.

There was a discussion I was involved in last week on this very topic.  It would seem at first glance that we would be somewhat elitist we would exclude them, but then I looked into my own camp.

I just started a 53 sedan over the weekend.  If I can ever get past the rust issues, while trying to make it a nice car, I do intend to drive it.  Part of driving it and enjoying it for me would be adding a/c.  In doing so, to keep a "somewhat" factory appearance under the hood, I have an A5 compressor from my 61 parts car that I would incorporate into the system, use some original looking wiring (cloth covered modern wiring) for the compressor, and tuck away a vintage air system in the trunk.  The car will still have bias ply tires, be the original colour, with the interior done correctly.  The a/c would throw me out of class judging at a GN, but I would still like to show up with it.  Not participating would be a kick in the pants because I made one modification.

Since EVERYTHING needs to be done on this car, I figured what would be the harm in taking one liberty? 

Like I say, I don't know what the correct answer should be, but I'm somewhat leaning towards the decision being ok.

[Bill Gauch #23121]

My $0.02... There is certainly a place for modified cars in the world of "car collecting, old cars, restorations, street rods, hot rods, etc." However, there are only 2 acceptable options (in my opinion) when it comes to a Marquee club: Maintained original or Restored. The idea behind my opinion is that we are the historian/preservationists of the brand. That said, there are countless cars that are too far gone to return to either of these categories. Those should be the candidates for the modified designation. Now, my opinion gets a little fuzzy with reversible, non-visible or otherwise non-destructive modifications and safety modifications. I likely will switch my taillights to a brake/blinker combo and add directional to the front of the car. No one knows hand signals anymore and they're probably too busy texting to notice them anyway. I will probably also stick with sealed beams or, if I switch back to reflectors, I will likely convert to LEDs. And when I restore my radio, I will likely add in an audio input jack to support an external audio player (by the time I'm done, mp3s will be like todays records). I've also considered putting a junkyard engine in it just so I can drive it. However, the end goal is, was and always will be to restore my '38 to as near original as possible.

The problem with excluding anyone who differs in their opinion is that we risk losing the influence that comes from consensus. If I suggest that I am going to change my bone stock whatever to low profile 22" billet rims and 50 people here scream at me that I'm an a$$, I would probably consider other options. In addition, anything restored to non-original (in every way) condition would be modified. Powder coating and water based acrylic are 2 examples. Plastic parts cast out of heat, cold, and UV stable 2-part urethane resin instead of Bakelite are another example. Even using stainless fasteners instead of raw steel is a modification, but one I wouldn't hesitate to make in my marine/snow environment. So, I would say a highly modified 1942 fastback that externally looks bone stock (and, more importantly, it's owner) would be a great addition to the club. If nothing else, we could get another member who has the interest in the brand to become addicted to the brand.

[Davidinhartford]

   I would therefore caution those among us who do not believe in "street-rodded" Cadillacs that you risk being vilified as a "purist" 

Purist?  I'll wear that label proudly.

I'm not talking about hair splitting details like improvements, such as dual master cylinders or clear coat paint vs. lacquer.

I'm talking about these guys who take perfectly good cars and turn them into side shows.  Pimp my ride, Gas monkey garage, Kounts Kustoms and the like.

Nor am I talking about Derham tops on 40s and 50s limousines.   Or other one-off Motorama or Cadillac styling studio cars like the 1961 Eldorado owned by Nadeem K.

Those have a rightful place in the club for preservation.   They are part of Cadillacs history.



   

[Dan LeBlanc]

I for one would like to see the judging criteria/judging sheet before I make up my mind on the matter.

[Stinson]

Really, what is the issue? Most, MOST, people can't afford to restore or even purchase one of your very fine cars. Most of you won't even drive one if you own it - might get dusty or something, or worse, someone might even touch it. When you die it will most likely go to a museum because your family members won't even know how to use it, and when the museum tires of it, or changes focus, it will be sold to someone not necessarily having your desire to preserve it.

I listened to your very good opinions over the last 10 years and restored my 1937 Cadillac V-12 Touring Sedan. I invested $97,000 in doing so because the car is one of 87 built that year, and one of the 450 V-12 engines of its type built during 1934 through 1937. In fact, we only know of five of these 1937 8519's still around.

I have listed this car for sale on the CLC and other places and have yet to receive one interested phone call. Asking price of $97,000 to high? NADA shows it valued at $67,000. Everything is original other than the headlights being chromed, and the dash chromed, and a better looking set of wheels, and a pair of more efficient carbs. I still have the original headlights and wheels to put back on.

The point of this discussion is this: Everywhere I go people ask me if they could use the car in their wedding. They love it as it is. It won first place in the Modified section of the CLC's Potomac Region Club. People always ask if they can take pictures of the car and then I always say to them "give me your camera and let me take a photo of you standing by it or sitting in the car". This how you can truly share your work of art with others- and every nut and bolt does not have to be "original".

I have used this car for free in 7 family weddings and will use it in one last family wedding next July 16, 2016. and then I will sell the car. This weekend I used it in a first paid wedding event for $1,000 where three more people asked for my phone number for their future weddings. On the way home I stopped at a car show for a few hours and two more people asked if they could use the car in their weddings.

It appears to me that people are far more interested in actually using, touching, and riding in an antique car rather than just looking at them in a grassy field. That is why I invested so much into this car. I wanted to enjoy it, use it and share it with others who truly enjoy cars of the 1930's and the Art Deco of 1925 - 1940.

I know, to each his own, but believe me, not everyone gives a hoot if you have used a correct nut and bolt under the hood or everywhere on your car at such great expense. Loosen up, modified cars can also be works of art as others have mentioned - or can that only be in your opinion depending on which wealthy person requested one-off models back then. You have included the modified chapter because of the great amount of interest, and there is no longer a growing mass of "old people" like me since 1958 who care only for original cars. The Modified Chapter was added so that the CLC will not die - and I'm glad to have met some of them along the way.

Ty Stinson

[Dan LeBlanc]

Ty. Well said. Your car and Geoff Newcombe's car are two that come to mind in this topic. Both fantastic cars. There is a place for them in the club I say.

[Jay Friedman]

As I thought, the disdain is beginning. 

All I can say is that a number of stock Cadillacs of a certain age were driven to the Grand National in Wisconsin last month.  For example, I drove my totally stock '49 (well, I confess to an FM radio under the dash and seat belts for safety) 820 miles from my home in Georgia, and another '49 owner came several hundred miles from Ontario.  And there were others, too.  Yes, of course, there were trailer queens too; most of those I saw were classics of the teens, 20s and 30s. 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

The primary mission of the CLC as "the recognition and promotion of Cadillac & La Salle automobiles to the highest levels of authenticity as originally manufactured" remains unchanged.

The inclusion of a judged modified class is not about to result in modified cars being displayed (and judged) among stock original cars. In fact, such a scenario would have been more likely under the old system when modified cars could be registered in the appropriate class(es), subject to deductions for deviation from as-manufactured original.

The modified class simply provides another category enabling owners to participate in competitive judging which had previously been unavailable to them.

I might also point out that parallel situation exists when - some years back - the AACA instituted a new "street rod" class, the association deeming street rods' rightful place in American car popular culture. To date, I am unaware of any deleterious effects it has had on the AACA, its membership, participation or the quality of cars displayed at AACA events. If this serves as any example, it is difficult to envision the CLC any the worse for making a similar decision.

So long as membership remains respectful to one another, promoting social fellowship and camaraderie uppermost - as in the best traditions of any association, there is little reason to fear for the future of the CLC or its mission.