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Looking for a dual master cylinder for my '47.

Started by bobrich47, July 20, 2015, 12:12:26 PM

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bobrich47

Hello, I have a '47 60S that I need to get back on the road. I would like to swap the single reservoir master cylinder for a dual. I tried a search an these forums, but no match. Thanks ,Bob
Bob Richards

kkarrer

Bob,
     I've converted several 41-55's to dual MC and to modern boosters as well and it was decided this year that there is to be no point deduction for that at Grand National judging (if you're interested in that).  Call Ron out in Desert Palm Springs 760-329-1886.  You could also convert to disc brakes, but I have yet to see a real performance benefit to that, though maintenance is easier.  Tell Ron I sent you.
Ken Karrer CenTex Regional Dir.
1955 convertible coupe

Jay Friedman

You could also try Art Gardner agardner@gardnergroff.com

He used to sell dual master cylinder kits for 37-49 Cadillacs.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

bobrich47

Thank you Ken and Jay.  I will check these out.  I heard about a guy that made disc brake conversions kits out there in the desert a few years back. That must be him.   The switch to discs was my next question to the forum.  Ken, you don't think you've gained much when making the switch, besides ease of maintenance? The added stopping power was not a lot better?
Bob Richards

kkarrer

I've done many disc conversions 60's Chevy Pick up, 56 Sunliner Convertible, 41 Cadillac and others and thus far I've not found the stopping power to be that much better.  They stop more evenly and require no adjustment after proper installation, but other than that I can't say they were worth the effort and expense and in some cases you have to change your wheels.  A fairly recent development also is that specialized brake providers like MP Brakes are now supplying updated linings (like ceramics) for the older style brakes.  A number of my friends who race are now using drum brakes.  In cases where all of the drums and associated parts are in need of replacement (and I've certainly seen that), it might be worth the change, but otherwise, I'd just go with a dual MC and a booster for power and let it go at that.  Ron's company is RPM and while I've also made my own, I just installed one of his dual MC kits with booster and a rack and pinion on a 55 Series 62 sedan. 3 Years ago I put rack and pinion and power discs on my 41 6227D coupe.  The rack and pinion on that 41 really made a difference and made a number of local Cadillac and Packard guys envious.
Ken Karrer CenTex Regional Dir.
1955 convertible coupe

CEC #20099

Ken Karrer: 55 62 Dual M/C & booster with a " RACK & PINION"  ??  Please explain.
Is the STEERING R & P or the booster setup ???  c chleboun # 20099

bobrich47

Ok I'll give them a call.  Thanks for the help, Bob.
Bob Richards

Caddy Wizard

My kit will fit your 47 and keeps the stock drum brakes (which work well, in my opinion).  No holes will be drilled in the body or frame, so the kit is totally reversible with no trace, if the next owner wants to remove the dual master and revert to the original single master.  My kit mounts a dual circuit Wilwood master (you supply) in the stock location and uses the stock pedal assembly.  There are several custom parts, but I supply those in my kit.  For cars with stick shift transmissions, the plumbing of the supply hoses is a little tricky, but doable.  For cars with HydraMatic transmissions, the plumbing of the supply hoses is a snap.  Plumbing of the brake lines is simple, as the existing lines remain on the car and are attached to the master with a pair of short adapter lines.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

Jay Friedman

I've heard of '49 owners who have had problems installing disc brakes on their cars.  I would stick with the drum brakes as Art suggests, and just switch to his dual master cylinder set-up which I know to work well on several cars.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

kkarrer

I've heard good things about Art's stuff and if I were not looking for a power booster with the dual MC, I'd certainly go with his components.  He knows what he's doing.  As to someone's question re. the rack and pinion and Power MC from Ron at RPM, they are two separate units.  The steering uses a GM (Pontiac I think) rack and pinion and you use your existing pump. You do not have to modify your steering shaft except for adding a Borgeson joint.  Tie rod ends will be modified.
Ken Karrer CenTex Regional Dir.
1955 convertible coupe

Paul Phillips

Bob
If you decide to go with Art's kit, I have an unused Wilwood MC that will match with it. Will sell for half current new price. Please let me know if interested. I can probably even get with Art and combine shipping with you so you get everything at once. (We live near each other in metro Atlanta )

Thanks
Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)
1937 Packard Super 8 Convertible Victoria
1910 Oakland Model 24 Runabout

gary griffin

#11
I put arts kit on my 1942-6719 with standard transmission and it is great, but I also put one on my 1940 LaSalle 5029 and had to do a lot of modifications. Art said I could return it if there were problems but I wanted dual master cylinder bad enough to rework the kit.

Another factor is, if you are planning on showing your car at a club event no points are deducted for dual master cylinders, or seat belts. I have always said safety trumps authenticity and now there is no penalty for trying to be safer.
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Caddy Wizard

#12
If you hide the brake fluid reservoirs, few judges will even notice my dual circuit kit since the master is in the original spot, largely hidden under the steering column.


As for adding power rack and pinion steering, buyer beware!  I did this once using a kit supplied by a vendor and greatly regretted it.  The mounting parts for the kit were under-engineered and allowed the steering rack to flex back and forth laterally (especially in parking lot manuevering).  The mounting plates supplied were flexing to such an extent that in my opinion they were at risk of potential fatigue failure.  Here are some pictures of how I added box beams to the outside of the plates to minimize flexing of those mounting plates.  Personally, I strongly recommend that we all avoid adding power rack and pinion to these pre-52 cars and simply use a better tire!  To me, that is a radial that looks like a bias ply with a skinny tread patch, run at a relatively high inflation pressure of 35-38 psi.  That will maintain the originality of the car, but provide easier steering (about like half-power steering, in my estimation).  Diamondback makes a nice one based on a light truck tire.  Here are two pictures of that on a 50 sedan I had.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

kkarrer

Right, some of these units are under-engineered.  The first one that I got for a 56 Sunliner certainly was and I had to redo several parts.  The ones I've gotten from Ron at RPM were fine especially for the 41 Cadillac coupe.  I don't know that it's worth the expense for the mid 50's cars unless your steering box is leaking and you just want a quicker lighter response.
Ken Karrer CenTex Regional Dir.
1955 convertible coupe

Stinson

Art Gardner, do make a kit for the '37 Cadillac MC series 70, 75 or 85?
Ty Stinson
Ty Stinson
'37 Cad 8519 Touring Sedan V12
CLC22330

bcroe

Quote from: bobrich47 on July 21, 2015, 12:15:32 AM
Thank you Ken and Jay.  I will check these out.  I heard about a guy that made disc brake conversions kits out there in the desert a few years back. That must be him.   The switch to discs was my next question to the forum.  Ken, you don't think you've gained much when making the switch, besides ease of maintenance? The added stopping power was not a lot better?

I applaud the upgrade to a dual master cylinder; I won't have anything less.  My first
car with disc brakes was the first I was really comfortable with in any situation.  If the
car isn't driven at high speeds regularly this might not be important.  The biggest
reason I like front discs, is they work correctly when wet.  I have have some bad
experiences with drums that ran through a big puddle, to where I started dragging
the brakes in the rain so they would stop straight.  Bruce Roe

Caddy Wizard

Ty, if your car has the master with two bolts under the reservoir to bolt it to the inside face of the frame, yes.  But if it has the triangular, three-bolt flange on the end of the master, no I don't have a kit for that.  Basically, the smaller Cads of the late 30s might use my kit, while the larger Cads (Series 90, for example) won't be able to.

I designed the kit for a 49 Cadillac and then found out later that the same master set up was used for many years prior.  Here is a picture of one of my kits being installed on a 49 fastback...
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

Stinson

Thanks Art, but I do have the large series 75/85 requiring the three bolt system.
Ty Stinson
Ty Stinson
'37 Cad 8519 Touring Sedan V12
CLC22330

Scot Minesinger

Ken,

Very interesting that you experience no huge improvement on a 40's Cadillac in converting to disc brakes.  I see this similar phenomenon in 70's Cadillacs, in that my 1970 Cadillac with disc brakes and radial tires which is in wonderful working order, does not seem to stop as well as a heavier 1974 Cadillac-wonder why?  I guess if the brakes can lock up the wheels, no more stopping power can be provided by the brakes themselves.  Understand that the main reason drums went to disc brakes in late 1960's for Cadillac was less fade (better heat dissipation) after repeated use, which is not much of an issue in hobby car driving.  At least my 1970 is noticeably faster than a 1974 and gets better mileage.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

kkarrer

Scot,
I could be wrong here, but I think it's all about surface area and pressure and unless you upgrade to a larger (than the usual disc kit supplies) disc and pads, the primary benefits to a disc change out are maintenance, fade, pulling and less issues with water on the road.  I've put disc kits on 1/2 ton trucks, tri 5 T birds (much better there, but just throwing out a rock attached to a rope beats tir 5 T Bird stock brakes), 56 Sunliner, 41, 50, and 55 Cadillacs, 60's Mustangs, and a 1929 Chrysler.  All of these included dual res. MC and power booster and some already had OEM power boosters.  I got some performance improvement and in many cases great improvement, but really couldn't attribute it to the discs and in some cases switched out the discs for the original linings  (as you can with most kits) just to check my theory and saw no real difference in stopping distance (no pulling issues however).  In the most recent instance, I waived my customer off of the discs and just installed a dual res. MC and a modern power booster and he was very happy.  That was on a 55 Series 62 and those brakes will put you on your nose.  When those power boosters on a 54-55 go bad you can be in for some real issues that don't just involve your brakes.  Brake fluid can be pulled via vacuum, into the intake and you'll get some really interesting exhaust fumes when that happens. I've rebuilt those boosters myself and I've sent them off to very respectable rebuilders, but that can be expensive, time consuming, and frustrating when they just fail again, which in my experience happens in about 30-40% of the cases.
Ken Karrer CenTex Regional Dir.
1955 convertible coupe