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'71 Eldo: Top repair/manual operation

Started by wbdeford, July 31, 2015, 06:05:40 PM

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wbdeford

Until I can fix the power mechanism, is there a way one person can operate the top manually with reasonable effort?

Slow and partial operation: how likely is this to be the fault of the relay?  It went down OK today but only went part way back up.

Is it possible to replace the relay and/or motor and/or transmission cables with the top all the way down?
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

cwcinps

I have found the folks at convertible top in san Gabriel CA helpful, they will take your call with advice too. they have some links on their page with help documents too.  there are actuators (gear boxes) on each side, remove them and then you can move the top manually.  they are what have to turn with the cables/motors.  you might be able to remove the cables but the stress and strain on the top frame will cause other issues (I am still saving to pay for my lesson).
there is book on scissor tops 71-76 that is a good investment, east to find on ebay
Good luck
Chris

1957 Coupe deVille
1976 Convertible Eldorado

wbdeford

Thanks, Chris.  I disconnected the cables from the gear boxes but did not remove the gear boxes themselves.  Will give that a try.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

The Tassie Devil(le)

Most likely the fault of the relay.

But, this can only be accessed by removing the seat base and back.

Bruce.
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

wbdeford

Thanks, Bruce.  Anyone know how to remove the actuators (gear boxes)?  I haven't tried yet, so maybe's it's easy and obvious, but I don't want to screw it up, and it is not in the regular shop manual.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

chrisntam

#5
I would recommend a deliberate evaluation of what is working and what is not before you start hanging expensive parts on it.

At the suggestion of "experts" at one of the parts retailers (don't recall which one) I replaced the relay on my scissor topped '75 olds and it made no difference.  I kept the old relay and am glad I replaced it because when they fail, they can "reportedly" cause some electrical damage downstream.

You can operate the top manually by disconnecting the drive cables, but from what I understand, the top is heavy.  Certainly two could get the top up, one prolly could, though I haven't done it.

If you have a fisher body service manual, it has top information there.
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

wbdeford

chrisntam,

At this point not replacing any parts--hoping that removing the actuators will make it easier to operate the top manually.  If I "throw a part at it", it will be the relay.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

The Tassie Devil(le)

For the complete description of the '71 Folding top, you have to go to the '71 Shop Manual.   It isn't mentioned in the '71 Fisher Body Manual.

In 1972, it is mentioned in the '72 Fisher Body Manual, and not the Shop Manual.

Looks like anything new for a model gets mentioned in the Shop Manual, then the following years, for body stuff, reverts to the Body Manual.

Bruce. >:D

'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

TJ Hopland

There was an article in the self starter maybe 10 years ago that gave the procedure to manually operate the top.  I seem to recall it was a 2 person job.   I remember making copies of the article and was going to throw em in the glove box.  I know I made the copies but must have put them in a pile instead of the car.  Luckily I have not needed it. 

When I had my top replaced a couple years ago I paid extra to have em take apart, clean, and re lube the gear boxes.   I didn't think they were bad or the top was slow before but it really made a difference.   My memory is a little fuzzy on the details but I remember thinking that getting the gearboxes off was not going to be easy and could also effect the alignment so getting it done with the top seemed to make sense.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

The Tassie Devil(le)

The biggest thing to remember is that if the gear boxes aren't in correct alignment, the top arms could strike each other, causing damage.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

wbdeford

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on August 01, 2015, 08:24:21 PM
For the complete description of the '71 Folding top, you have to go to the '71 Shop Manual.   It isn't mentioned in the '71 Fisher Body Manual.

In 1972, it is mentioned in the '72 Fisher Body Manual, and not the Shop Manual.

Looks like anything new for a model gets mentioned in the Shop Manual, then the following years, for body stuff, reverts to the Body Manual.

Bruce. >:D

Do you know what page it is on in the '71 shop manual?  I couldn't find it in the index under "convertible", "folding" or "roof".  The only convertible reference I could find at all was to removing and replacing the switch.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

The Tassie Devil(le)

Ah ha, they must have done the same as the '72 manuals.   I don't have the '71 Shop Manual in my possession at the moment.

I have a '71 Fisher Boy Manual, and the Eldorado Top is not mentioned in it at all.

Could Cadillac have printed a totally separate Service Manual for the "B" and "E" Bodied cars?

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

wbdeford

I found the '71 Fisher body manual and downloaded it, but it unfortunately only contained the mechanism for "A" bodies, which is the older hydro-electric mechanism. 

I found the '1971 Folding Top Service Manual "B & E" Bodies' on ebay for $11 and ordered it.  So, the top will just stay down till it arrives.

Thanks, guys!
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

TJ Hopland

I know for sure its covered in the 73 Fisher body manual if you can't find the info anywhere else. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Paul Tesone

 This might help while you're waiting for your book . I couldn't find anything specific to manual movement of the top . I've had issues with my top ( 1976 ) not closing all the way. This issue has been addressed a couple of times in the Forum .Very difficult to find someone experienced with these scissors tops . After much adjusting , my restorer managed to get the top in a position where I can lock it down . But it still isn't right . The driver's side drops into the correct position , leaving the passenger's side 2-3 inches above the header . It will pull down and lock , but I'm not happy with it  I worry that on a colder day it will be too stiff to pull down and lock . I have been advised by club members to keep the latches OPEN when putting the top up and down , or they could get damaged when putting the top down. I haven't been able to confirm that in the manual , but that's what I've been told .   Good luck . Paul Tesone   

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Paul,

Yes, it is imperative that the top locking levers are left in the open position when lowering the top.

If they are pushed back to the closed position, they will break, and possibly damage the top.   Replacements aren't cheap.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

wbdeford

Thanks, Paul.  Yes, Bruce, I leave the levers in the open position.  One of them was already broken when I got the car, making it slightly more difficult to open and close.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

wbdeford

The large bushing on the passenger side had become separated from the hinge.  I put that back together and tried again.  The top still got bogged down and stalled when the engine was off.  But then with the engine running, it successfully came back up.  The plastic thingy at the actuator end of the driver's side cable broke apart, so that cable needs to be replaced, although it is so far staying in well enough to operate the top.

After getting the top back up, I performed the synchronization procedure, which just means disconnecting the cables from the actuators while the top is up and locked into place, then reconnecting the cables.  First pulled the driver's side out and nothing happened.  Then, pulled the other side out and the gear moved one direction or the other, so I know they were out of sync--but it might have been fine before I started working on it.

So----as far as manual operation goes, when I had the actuators disconnected, I could tell it would still take a lot of effort to raise the top manually.  Two people could probably do it without too much trouble.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville