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1930 Cadillac "353" steering

Started by Hilarius, August 08, 2015, 12:45:17 PM

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Hilarius

Hi all,
ever since I restored my 1930-353 15 years ago I complained about the hard steering. Impossible to turn the wheel while standing still. Always have to find a parking space wide enough to be able to maneuver to get away.
Hadn't had the steering apart then and thought it was intended that way.
Last year I tackled the problem, again, and had the box apart and re-sealed it to use gear oil in it. No improvement.
Now I have aquired a set of king pin bearings as the old ones are needing replacement.
Prior to installing them a friend had the idea of testing the box without the steering connections.
As the steering connections are all disassembled, anyway, we were thus testing the steering gear itself and attached two strong coil springs to the pitman shaft to simulate the load. Great surprise, the steering against the springs was as hard as ever.  Originally, I had the king pin bearings under suspicion but they seem not to be the guilty party, although worn and in need of replacement.
So we took the steering gearbox apart, again, as we had done last year to seal it better than in 1930 and use gear oil in it.
We spent two days on that thing, measuring, and placing worm and sector in minute different relation to each other, doing a lot of thinking and considering, all to no avail.
There is wear, of course, but still within the worn limits of the manual. I think that when you get wear, there should be ever more play in the steering, but it almost locks up when under load. We just cannot find the reason.
Maybe it was meant that way??
We are considering changing the bushings for needle bearings and the thrust ball bearings for angular ones. Throuble is to find any without having to change the bores.
Anyone have any experience or can help with advice as to what to do to correct that boxe's internals to turn smoothly also under load??
Or is that sort of steering box generally a hard one to use??

Hilmar.
Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P

Hilarius

Really no one out there to offer any advice??
Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P

m-mman

I have a 1929 (341B) I bought it only recently so my experience is limited.  It didn't run when I bought it, but steering it onto the trailer and into the garage it had the hard unmovable steering I expected for a car of this age.

I pulled the motor for a rebuild. While it is out I have also pulled the steering gear. It was full of hard packed, dried out, old, heavy, chassis, lube, grease. The bearings were barely moveable from the crud. I washed and cleaned it all up and the bearings then spun easily. I have reassembeled it and adjusted it in a manner that eliminates the play but doesnt lock it up. 

The eccentric busing that the sector shaft operated in is/was frozen. I tried to free it up so that it would adjust, but in doing so it began to distort slightly so I stopped. It is a low use car and there was no real wear on the parts. So I adjusted only the worm shaft preload and the free play between the worm & sector.

It is still on the bench as I fight with gluing together all the broken die cast and parts of the control levers. However with the wheel installed it turns freely in each direction. I have yet to install any lube. . . . My plan is to use the Penrite 1200W steering box lube they sell at www.restorationstuff.com  It seems the box originally had a Alemite fitting which was used to inject a heavy 'gear oil' NOT a 'chassis grease' however seeing the fitting the installation of chassis grease is inevitable.

With luck I will have it back in the car in a week and can report back.

How easily does your car steer with all the parts installed and the front wheels off the ground?
Have you verified that all the other linkages are free and easy moving?
1929 341B Town Sedan
1971 Miller-Meteor Lifeliner ambulance
Other non-Cadillac cars
Near Los Angeles, California

CLC #29634

Mike Baillargeon #15848

Hilmar, I have a 1929 Roadster and my arms are getting bigger every time I take the car out.

Its a very tuff steering car.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your steering I think its just a heavy car.

When I look at Cadillac's for sale of our vintage, occasionally in the ad it will say car was converted to power steering..........

I thought why would they do that to the car..........boy I know why now!

I don't know what the conversion would entail but I think it would be worth it.....The car is just plain fun to drive!!

As I was restoring my car an old timer told me to use STP oil treatment in the steering box, he said its thick but still travels as the gears spin.

Mike

Mike
Baillargeon
#15848

Hilarius

m-mman and Mike!

Thank you for your input. It all boils down to the fact that the Cadillacs of that vintage seem to always steer hard, indeed.
I couldn't believe it as I have seen ad pictures of the time with Ladies steering merrily away in such Cadillacs. Must have been a different brand of Ladies, too.

After converting the box to hypoid oil lubrication, last year, I have now painstakingly cleaned it again, reassembled and adjusted it to shop manual specifications and put it back into the car. It turns very easily with all the linkage attached.
Today, I shall install the brake backing plates, brakes drums and wheels and see what happens when the wheels touch the ground.
Had taken the opportunity to also do the brakes king pins, whole front suspension, and to paint things.
Frankly, after what I have heard, I don't expect any significant change what with the comments mentioned above.
Still, I wouldn't consider converting the car to power steering. Rather let my arms get bigger every time I get the car out a s Mike says.
m-mman, let us hear how your steering behaves once you have it back in the car and can voice an opinion as to the hardness of its steering.

Hilmar.
Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P

m-mman

#5
The topic of steering gear lube has me confused.  Today I looked in the shop manual and it says "chassis lube" and the little symbol shows the same lube as you would inject into the shackles and steering knuckles.  Perhaps back then "chassis lube" was a thick oil(?) and not the heavy paste of later cars . . . ?

The lube they had in Bujour (sp) automatic lubricators was more of an oil than a grease as I have been told. So, maybe in 1929 grease = heavy oil?

Now how much lube do you put into the box? There is a filler plug and a drain plug (Ok) but the shop manual has a note that the "spring clip" should be removed from the 'vent hole' and that the box should be filled until the lube runs out of the hole(!) then the spring clip plug should be replaced.

Uhhhh as I see it this clip/plug is 4-5 inches up the (chrome) steering column from the box. I dont remember a passage from the box to the column for the lube to get that high. . . . . there is a rope seal at the top behind the steering wheel but it just doesn't make sense that the vent hole (if that is what I am seeing) should be the full mark for the lube level.

Can anybody add anything?

Oh also as I was looking at the shop manual today it gives different steering ratios for each 1928 Cad, 1929 Cad, 1928 LaSalle, 1929 LaSalle. What looks like the higher ratios (easier steering?) on the LaSalles (strange) but the LaSalles did have a shorter wheelbase so maybe that is a factor . . .
1929 341B Town Sedan
1971 Miller-Meteor Lifeliner ambulance
Other non-Cadillac cars
Near Los Angeles, California

CLC #29634

Bobby B

Hilmar,
  Hi. In my opinion, the best lube made for your steering box is Penrite.
                                                                                       Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

m-mman

Something else to consider. 1920s & 30s version of power steering.
Way back in the day, drivers understood that tires turn much easier when they are rolling, even just a little bit. 

Trying to get into a parking situation? Rock the car - Get it to roll even a couple of inches, while you are turning the steering wheel.

On a slight incline? release the clutch pull forward slightly AND TURN  - then let the car roll backwards slightly AND TURN. Do this a couple more times and the wheels will be pointing the right direction and the car will not have appreciably moved forward or back from where you wanted it.
1929 341B Town Sedan
1971 Miller-Meteor Lifeliner ambulance
Other non-Cadillac cars
Near Los Angeles, California

CLC #29634

Hilarius

Hi all,
I have now finished going over the whole of the front axle of the 1930 "353".
Virtually everything turning was taken apart, cleaned lubricated and put back together.
The ball joints are all very good, the king pin bearings are new, the wheel bearings are very good, the worm bushings are very good and the lower one is new, the thrust bearings are new.
The steering gear box has been painstakingly adjusted to the 1930 manual and put back into the car. The steering column support back of the instrument panel has been carefully adjusted so no strain can there be on the column.
The box was converted  to hypoid gear oil by installing an oil seal between the body and the eccentric and o-rings between eccentric and sector shaft and between the body and the worm adjusting nut.
It may be that Penrite, as suggested by Bobby B., is yet a better lubricant than the hypoid gear oil used, but it can certainly not make much of a difference at the steering wheel.
The whole of the steering turns freely until the moment when the wheels touch the ground and take the weight of the car.
I took her out for a test drive and readjusted the adjustments again thereafter.
Well, to sum it up, apart from the satisfaction of knowing that everything is in prime condition, now, the many days of work were all in vain as far as the hardness of the steering is concerned.
I also have a 1948-7519 car and it and the "353" both have a front axle load of 1500 kilograms. The 1948 steers like a dream compared to the 1930. What an improvement from the primitive worm and sector to the  recirculating ball type steering.
I must, consequently, agree with what some of you have said that this is the way it is. This car is heavy and it steers hard making your arms seem a little longer after each trip in it.
Sad but true, you cannot make that car or that type of early worm and sector steering work faily lightly.
Along with one of you I wonder how the Ladies of the thirties were able to drive such a car. In traffic and in parking lots, to be sure, not on a country road.
Hilmar.
Hilmar Schneider #26898
1930-162, "353", 4D-SDN-7P
1940-7567, 2D-CCP-2/4P
1948-7519X, 4D-SDN-5P
1952-6019X, 4D-SDN-5P
1973 Mercedes 107R, 2D-CCP-2P
2015 Cadillac SRX, 4D-SDN-5P

31caddy

#9
I have a 31 355A sedan, and find that it steers very easily when moving even very slowly. Turning the wheels while the car is stationary is an entirely different matter. I avoid this, as it  is so difficult that it feels like I'm going to damage/break something ( on the car, AND on me  :) )
R. Rowland CLC #28971

1931 Model 355A Sedan (Recently sold)
1931 Model 355A Fleetwood 4535 Convertible Coupe
2005 Cadillac XLR