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Advice on buying a 57 without transmission

Started by pstadnyk, September 24, 2015, 01:25:40 AM

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pstadnyk

I'm looking to buy my first 57 DeVille. The one I'm looking at is in great shape with v.little rust and only 77K miles. Except it doesnt have a transmission. I know that with an adapter plate (and different starter and shortened driveshaft) I can mount a TH350 - this would be at a huge savings over replacing with a restored original ($3300). But I cant start the engine without the trans, so health of the motor is an unknown.

What else should I be looking for in mechanical terms? Having never restored one of these I would imagine there are countless expensive money pits I could be getting myself into. I'd love to get some advice form anyone who has experience restoring these beauties.

Thanks in advance
Paul
1957 Coupe DeVille
1960 Series 62

Bill Young

Paul , Welcome. First unless You have expertise in detecting bodywork and overall condition on Cars that are approaching I would strongly recommend You invest 2 or three hundred in the services of a professional antique and classic auto appraiser , I believe You will thank yourself many times over. I would do this as My next step in deciding what to offer if anything at all. Good luck.

Barry M Wheeler #2189

One of the things you need to know is that the braking system is a one year only. It is hard (read expensive) to find master cylinders. Good luck. I had a '57 convertible once and enjoyed it quite a bit.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

cadillac ken

#3
All of the above is good advice.  I have had many Caddy's that have had the original transmission in them and I can tell you they are very robust and I have never had a "bad" one.  The dual range is really nice around town.

If it were me, I would have a professional look at the car as suggested to assess the condition. Then if you think you are still interested in making a play for the car, I would look for a good used original transmission.  They are out there.  I have through the years stockpiled 3 good working units that I pulled from parts cars I purchased and would not hesitate to install them and use them.  When you consider the costs of a driveshaft, adaptor, etc. a good original transmission is still probably the cheapest way to go--- and it will drop right in.

Make no mistake, a good used TH350, or TH400 will cost you about $600 to $800 and a rebuilt one of the same well over twice that much.  I have a TH400 that was rebuilt for my 1970 500ci motor.  The adaptor ($129), starter ($150), driveshaft made ($285) and other misc.(modified kick down rod, linkage) I have totaled about $2800 in the whole deal.

Just remember, you are almost always better off finding a running driving car for what seems like considerably more money, but almost always you will never be able to make the "builder" or "project" into the same for the price of a running car.  Things add up and if you are honest about keeping records, you will see thousands, not hundreds, fly out of your bank account trying to bring a car back to life.  It's easy to overlook the details.

Good luck and be patient.

TJ Hopland

Missing transmission?  Like it failed at some point and was removed by a shop then perhaps the car sans the transmission was returned to the owner while it was being worked on then things went sour?   So currently the transmission's location is unknown? 

I just had a 57 Hydramatic rebuilt and it cost about $1500.   Mine did need any major hard parts, just bushings so I could see $3000 if it needed some hard parts.   Apparently it was pretty common for the bellhousings to crack so depending on what sort of repair were attempted in the past that too could be an expensive problem to fix. 

I would not count on a 350 swap being cheaper.   There are a lot of little things that have to be dealt with.   Drive shaft and adapter are one thing but then you also have to deal with mounts and linkage issues.   The 350 has a TV  cable, the HM had a rod.  The 350 has the PRND21,  57 has PND21R so that is an annoying difference. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Cadillac Jack 82


There is a rebuilt 57 transmission located in Kansas City MO for 200 on Ebay.  Give me a minute and I'll see if I can find it
Tim

CLC Member #30850

1959 Cadillac CDV "Shelley"
1964 Cadillac SDV "Rosalie"
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado "Sienna"

Past Cars

1937 LaSalle Cpe
1940 Chevrolet Cpe
1941 Ford 11Y
1954 Buick 48D
1955 Cadillac CDV
1955 Packard Clipper
1957 Cadillac Series 62
1962 VW Bug
1962 Dodge 880
1966 Mercury Montclair
1967 Buick Wildcat Convertible
1968 Chevy Chevelle SS
1968 Plymouth Barracuda
1977 Lincoln MKV

Cadillac Jack 82


Never mind I can't find it on Ebay any longer.  Must have sold.  Average cost for a rebuild should be 1500-2200 bucks.  Not cheap but at least you keep the car original
Tim

CLC Member #30850

1959 Cadillac CDV "Shelley"
1964 Cadillac SDV "Rosalie"
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado "Sienna"

Past Cars

1937 LaSalle Cpe
1940 Chevrolet Cpe
1941 Ford 11Y
1954 Buick 48D
1955 Cadillac CDV
1955 Packard Clipper
1957 Cadillac Series 62
1962 VW Bug
1962 Dodge 880
1966 Mercury Montclair
1967 Buick Wildcat Convertible
1968 Chevy Chevelle SS
1968 Plymouth Barracuda
1977 Lincoln MKV

Walter Youshock

FWIW, you'd be far better to have the correct transmission in the car.  Yes, the '57 was a PITA and slightly better than the '56.

You'd almost have to get a ''57 unit as it was the last year for an external cooler (not in the radiator).

In the long run, the correct unit will maintain the value of the car.  You may have a lot of fiddling to do to get a different trans to work in the car properly.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

Coupe Deville

Quote from: Walter Youshock on September 24, 2015, 12:30:20 PM
Yes, the '57 was a PITA

Hahaha, isn't that the truth Walter? My 57' gave me a lot of headaches when I had it. Not to mention the hydrovac brakes! <That is a sware word in my family. The 57 is a very good looking car. I guess it really depends how much you want this exact car. If I were you, I would keep searching for a more complete one to save you headaches and money. Unless, you are looking for a project of this proportion. In the end, when the car was done or at least as far as I was going to take it and be satisfied with it, It was worth all of the trouble for the satisfaction. 

-Gavin
-Gavin Myers CLC Member #27431
"The 59' Cadillac says more about America than a whole trunk full of history books, It was the American Dream"

pstadnyk

Hi all, first off thanks for being so responsive and informative. I guess I shouldnt have expected anything less from a bunch of Caddy-loving enthusiasts. I am new to Cadillac restoration but hell, its never too late right? These are the most beautiful and iconic American cars ever made, so for now, I'm in for whatever punishment this car puts me through.

I pulled the trigger on the purchase because I got it for a steal. The owner picked the trans to restore a Brougham (which I saw finished, it was awesome). He swore it ran before it was removed but when we went to turn the engine it moved a little and then got stuck. So, I halved the asking price and walked out of there with a nearly rust-free, very solid Coupe deVille in need of (possibly) and engine rebuild.

My forgone conclusion at this point is to have the entire brake system rebuilt, along with the engine, and then drop in a rebuilt original trans from a place in NJ that sells the cores for 650 and then rebuilds then for about 1500. That seems like a fairly good deal based on what I have found so far.

As far as the engine rebuild, I'm open to any suggestions. The car is in the Tampa area so if anyone has contacts near or far I'm interested in hearing them. I'm hoping for starters I can just break it free with some mystery oil.

In the meantime, here are some pics... more to come.
1957 Coupe DeVille
1960 Series 62

SixDucks

OUTSTANDING!!!!!! Well done. It may prove to be more economical to post in the parts wanted section for the missing parts. I'm certain many of our members can guide you through any event you may experience.
Enjoy your first Cadillac!

Terry
Current:
1941 coupe
1962 Fleetwood
1988 Brougham
Previous:
1956 Series 62 Sedan
1963 Fleetwood
1975 Fleetwood Brougham D'Elegance
1989 Brougham

TJ Hopland

How long since it ran?

On the engine I would pull the spark plugs and see if there are any signs of stuff that is not supposed to be in there.   Next I think I would consider pulling the rocker arms.   You may be able to just loosen them.  The idea is to eliminate the valves as what is sticking.   If you have to remove the pushrods rather than just leaving them in the holes make sure you keep track of which was where and what end was up.   After you get those loose you can try turning it over again.   Maybe add some oil down the plug holes just for fun.   If it turns then you know it was valves sticking it and can then go after valves one by one to find the sticky one.  Im not sure how tight the clearances are so you may want to make sure the piston is down in the cylinder that you are working on the valves in so you don't bang em into a piston. 

Is that an original color?

That seems like a good plan for the transmission.   Seems like a fair price for a core and that seems to be a a typical price range for the rebuild. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

pstadnyk

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 24, 2015, 09:10:04 PM
How long since it ran?

Is that an original color?

Hard to say. The color is code 46: Mountain Laurel. Thanks for all the tech advice, I'll definitely be using it!
1957 Coupe DeVille
1960 Series 62

Bobby B

Quote from: pstadnyk on September 24, 2015, 08:11:30 PM

My forgone conclusion at this point is to have the entire brake system rebuilt, along with the engine, and then drop in a rebuilt original trans from a place in NJ that sells the cores for 650 and then rebuilds then for about 1500. That seems like a fairly good deal based on what I have found so far.



Paul, Hi. Just curious as to who's doing the Trans work for you? I'm in NJ. Good Luck with the new purchase!
                                                                                                                              Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Walter Youshock

#15
Very wise choice on the transmission. 

Congrats on purchasing the car.  It's a twin to mine.  You should have the brakes thoroughly gone over including wheel and master cylinders and send the booster out for a rebuild.  They are extremely complex.

Where are you located? 

And get a copy of the shop manual.  You're lost without it.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

pstadnyk

Quote from: Bobby B on September 24, 2015, 11:40:42 PM
Paul, Hi. Just curious as to who's doing the Trans work for you? I'm in NJ. Good Luck with the new purchase!
                                                                                                                              Bobby


No commitments yet, just pricing from http://www.cadillacpartsltd.com/

Open to hearing offers/options.
1957 Coupe DeVille
1960 Series 62

pstadnyk

Quote from: Walter Youshock on September 25, 2015, 05:39:16 AM
Very wise choice on the transmission. 

Congrats on purchasing the car.  It's a twin to mine.  You should have the brakes thoroughly gone over including wheel and master cylinders and send the booster out for a rebuild.  They are extremely complex.

Where are you located? 

And get a copy of the shop manual.  You're lost without it.

I'm in the Tampa, FL area (Brooksville to be specific). Where did you send your booster out to? If you have an extra manual or know where I can download one that would be very helpful too.
1957 Coupe DeVille
1960 Series 62

gary griffin

I bought a reprint manual for my 57 on eBay. Good investment. Working through the problems one at a time.
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Walter Youshock

Ed Strain in Pinellas Park, FL did my booster.  Curious how you're going to get the trans from Jersey to Florida...
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham