Author Topic: Horn relay  (Read 2194 times)

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Horn relay
« on: September 27, 2015, 01:36:20 PM »
1940 lasalle
Honked the, horn and it would not stop honking.
Took horn button off and don't see anything wrong there. I assume that is a horn relay on the firewall connected to the horn wires.
Do they sometimes stick?
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline 35-709

  • Posts: 5365
  • The most valuable antique is an old friend.
  • CLC Number: 4719
  • Name: G. Newcombe
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2015, 01:40:21 PM »
Yes, they do! 
There is an old joke about a guy having a bad day and to top it off his horn stuck in LA traffic while waiting behind a bunch of Hell's Angels.   ;D
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2015, 04:04:41 PM »
Changed horn relay- still same problem
When I install retainer horn honks
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline KD

  • Posts: 351
  • 1940 Cadillac 9033 V-16
  • CLC Number: 26801
  • Name: K Dennison
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2015, 04:33:48 PM »
Does your car have the flasher screwed to the steering column near the horn contact? If so see if that screw is shorting out the contact of the horn.
I had that problem on my 40 Cad
KD CLC#26801
Ken Dennison

1935 Auburn S/C Cabroilet
1940 Cadillac V16 7 passenger Imperial Sedan (9033)
1929 Ford Closed Cab Pick Up
1960 Austin Healey Sprite

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2015, 06:54:28 PM »
Flasher is under dash
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline Steve Passmore

  • Posts: 5768
  • Name: Steve Passmore - Sadly Deceased
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2015, 04:11:05 AM »
Your horn earth wire is grounding somewhere between the button and the switch at the base of the column.  It must no touch anything metal until you press that button.
Your car should have the flasher arm under the steering wheel so if its been modified is something earthing there?   If you remove the horn button does the horn still blow? if so the problem could be with the wire in the column tube, if not then its with how you have things arranged within the button.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2015, 11:09:52 AM »
I think you are right, button off no horn.
Will check it out later.
Thanks
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2015, 04:37:15 PM »
I am missing something here.
Replaced the relay and still have same problem. If the wire was shorted wouldn't the horn blow even if the mechanism and button were not installed?
The small end of the spring goes over the Ferrell that has the ground wire going through it, if the wire is not insulated from the Farrell and the spring goes from there to the metal ring that goes under the three tabs what insulates the ground connection ? When I install the ring the horn honks.
Am I missing a piece?
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline Bill Ingler #7799

  • Posts: 1651
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2015, 07:16:26 PM »
Tom: Please take a look at the horn control picture below to make sure you have all the parts. I am more familiar with a 47 than a 40 but from what you describe is happening, you might be missing the 3 spacers ( P) that I believe are used to separate the horn ring from the steering wheel to prevent grounding and the blowing of the horn. I hope someone more familiar with the use of these spacers and where they positioned will please comment.    Bill

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2015, 08:02:31 PM »
I do not have a horn ring, just a button in the middle.
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2015, 09:45:19 PM »
Should there be something to lnsulate the end of the wire from the Ferrell?
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline Steve Passmore

  • Posts: 5768
  • Name: Steve Passmore - Sadly Deceased
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2015, 04:56:23 AM »
All years are slightly different. Some springs are insulated from the ferrell but grounded to the button which makes the connection to the wire when pressed. Others are grounded to the spring and something in the button grounds to the wheel when pressed.
On my 37 the spring is insulated from the ferrell but touches a brass disc in the button, when pressed the disc makes the contact with the wire and grounds through the spring.       On 41 the spring is touching the ferrell and also touching a metal plate under the button, when pressed this plate grounds on the steering wheel.   
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2015, 10:51:42 AM »
Mine is a 40 Lasalle and the small part of the spring is directly on the Ferrell and the big end goes into a cupped plate that is connected by three tabs that are directly grounded.

I must b missing an insulated somewhere.
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline Steve Passmore

  • Posts: 5768
  • Name: Steve Passmore - Sadly Deceased
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2015, 12:30:32 PM »
If thats the system on yours then Tom the ferrell should have an insulator under it. Its a small stepped thing that slots down inside the column tube with a wider top to stop it going all the way down and the wire passes up through it. I have just had to make one for one of my cars. I fashioned it from a piece of rubber, slit it in half on one side, slipped it over the wire and into the column and that holds it together with the spring pressing on the ferrell.  The plate in the button should be held off ground by the spring until pressed, then it makes contact with the wheel.
There was a thread recently about these, there being something in your country that will do the job.

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=137397.msg312104#msg312104
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Offline Bill Ingler #7799

  • Posts: 1651
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2015, 12:45:04 PM »
Tom: As you know coming up the steering column is the horn grounding wire. On the end of that wire is soldered a button connector. Around that button connector is a insulator either rubber or plastic which keeps the button connector from grounding against any metal creating a ground back to the horn relay causing the horn to blow. Taking one possible problem area at a time,what is the condition of the insulator around the button connector?  Would any pressure applied by the spring on the button connector when the horn button is installed, allow the button connector to move sideways to ground causing the horn to blow?   Bill

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2015, 06:18:18 PM »
That grommet is not real good and I will make something but I don't understand why if the wire is in contact with the Farrell, the Ferrell is in contact with the spring and the other end of the spring is in contact with the plate that holds it in and is grounded how can that work?
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline Bill Ingler #7799

  • Posts: 1651
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2015, 08:10:27 PM »
Tom: A horn will blow when you complete the circuit by a ground to that circuit. Without the horn button installed and you know the wire coming up the column is good, plus it is attached to what you call a Farrell and I call a button connector, and that Farrell is protected by a good insulator, the only way that horn will blow is if take a short piece of wire, touch one end to the Farrell and the other end to say the metal of the steering column. The horn blows. Put your small end of the spring on the Farrell, touch the end of the short wire on the spring and the other end of the short wire to the steering column. The horn blows because the circuit went ground through the wire that touched the steering column, through that short wire, through the spring, through the Farrell and down the wire to the horn relay. Position the large end of the spring under the metal cup of the horn button, run the same test with the short wire and the circuit goes through to ground. Now my point is after assembling the horn button on the steering wheel and without pushing down on the horn button, the horn still blows, then the circuit is grounding probably through the metal cup under the horn button. You might be missing some rubber insulation around the edge of the metal cup. Maybe Steve will tell in the 40 horn button what and where is the insulation other that around the button connector.  Bill

Offline Steve Passmore

  • Posts: 5768
  • Name: Steve Passmore - Sadly Deceased
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2015, 03:10:14 AM »
Mine is a 40 Lasalle and the small part of the spring is directly on the Ferrell and the big end goes into a cupped plate that is connected by three tabs that are directly grounded.

I must b missing an insulated somewhere.

If your problem is not with the insulator as Bill describes then its related to the cupped plate you have. This should be attached to your button and held OFF the steering wheel metal by the force of the spring. When you press the button it touches the wheel and the ground is made.  If it touches all the time theres something wrong with the button parts.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2015, 05:57:14 PM »
Steve- thanks for your reply
The rubber insulator was in rough shape but I was able to find a stepped seal for a faucet that when I split it and trimmed off about a 1/4 inch fit perfectly over the Ferrell and into the column.
I check for continuity between the wire and ground with multimeter and there was none even when I pushed down hard and wiggled it around.
It does not make sence to me because I see nothing that insulates the wire from grounding
Through the spring and the cupped plate that holds it.
I don't think the spring can hold the plate away from ground becaus it goes behind the three tabs and the spring actually pushes them together.
I will post some pics of what I have
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

Offline tturley

  • Posts: 390
  • Name: Tom Turley
Re: Horn relay
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2015, 12:23:36 PM »
Pics of my horn set-up
Member # 28929
1940 Lasalle model 5019
2011 Escalade platinum Edition
1995 Ford F-150
2015 Buick Enclave

 

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