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1956 Caddy Transmission Noise Help

Started by chstitans42, November 04, 2015, 09:16:10 PM

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chstitans42

Been Working on my 56, and finally got the engine to run correctly and well, and now I am turning my focus to the transmission. When in 3rd gear (I think) the trans likes to whine very loudly. I paid Irby Westmorland $1500 to overhaul this trans. A few questions for you guys since I lost his number

1. Do these transmissions run best on regular ATF or should I use something like type f?
2. I remember when I fixed a pan gasket leak, the pick up tube for the trans looked like it was on a pivot (moved up and down). From all the other auto transmissions of this era that I have worked on, they are bolted in place. Could mine have come loose? Anyone know for a fact if these are supposed to be stationary or not?

Yes its full on fluid, checked while in park and hot.

Please see the video below to hear the noise that I am referring to. Start around the middle of the video.
Thanks!
https://youtu.be/Wa3o9IDKjQ0?list=PLc_UqhyZpC_1V-rmJtxmkxQWvffnbnRE3

Roger Zimmermann

On my cars, I'm using Dexron III and will move to the one which is available when the Dexron III is gone.
The oil tube is attached by a a short piece of flat steel to the cylinder head, it does not move. If the tube from you car can get out, you may find a lot of transmission oil under the car as the level of oil is increasing when the engine is not running.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

wbdeford

Quote from: chstitans42 on November 04, 2015, 09:16:10 PM

Yes its full on fluid, checked while in park and hot.

And engine running?  Dexron III is what I use in my '58.  Watched your video and it doesn't seem at all like a low fluid problem. 

Sounds like the noise goes away in 2nd and 4th speeds.  This would seem to indicate something in the front unit.  Do you hear the noise in Reverse?
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

TJ Hopland

I just had a 57 rebuilt this summer but its been a while since I have driven it.   I think a bit of a noise is normal when yours is making the noise but yours sounds different and a lot louder than I remember ours.  Ours I remember sounding more like a manual transmission gear whirring noise.  The final down shift coming to a stop was the only time I really remember noticing it.   I think it was a bit louder before we got the rebuilt. 

I didn't do the work myself so I never saw details like the pickup tube.  Seems odd that it would move.  Also would seem odd that they would change its design since its not a real complex part.    Its not like they had a lot of different pan designs and needed a one size fits all pickup.

Shop said regular universal Dexron/Mercon is the best stuff to use even in the old Fords they rebuild.   They said only use Dex 6 in stuff that came with it originally. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Jon S

#4
The noise is NOT normal.  Type F fluid is for older Ford transmissions only and even those use a Mercon/Dextron today.  It definitely sounds like transmission noise, but if you rev and hold the engine at different RPMs in Neutral, does it make similar sounds?

Low fluid would be more of a buzzing sound.

I know the 1956 transmission is different from the 1957 - 1960's.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

wbdeford

The two pickup tubes (one for each pump) just press into the bores, squeezing the O-rings.  The other ends go inside the filter screen.  On a '58, The larger tube (to the front pump) has small bracket to help hold it in place. 

See attached picture.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

Roger Zimmermann

Quote from: Jon S on November 05, 2015, 09:29:17 AM

I know the 1956 transmission is different from the 1957 - 1960's.
The difference are not so important. OK, the tail end on the '56 transmission is much longer than 57-63 but, internally, the involved parts are mostly the same as 1957 and 58, again with some minor details. '
Usually, the valve body is different for each year.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

wbdeford

Based on what the '57 manual says, I suspect the front unit planetary gears.  They turn in Park, Neutral, Reverse, 1st and 3rd.  They become stationary (turning as a unit) with the sun and internal gears in 2nd and 4th.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

chstitans42

Thanks for all the info guys. With the pickup tube not sealing correctly, could this cause a loss of pressure and make the pump whine like it is? I remember it moving when I pulled the pan months ago. Could this be caused by storing the trans in a vertical position?

Roger Zimmermann

If the rubber seal or the tube entering the oil pump is out of shape, it could create some problems for the pump to get the oil quantity it needs. I doubt however that it will makes the noise you are experimenting. Storing the transmission vertically has no influence. I did it on my own transmision; I had no problem after it was installed.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

chstitans42

Quote from: wbdeford on November 05, 2015, 10:04:49 AM
Based on what the '57 manual says, I suspect the front unit planetary gears.  They turn in Park, Neutral, Reverse, 1st and 3rd.  They become stationary (turning as a unit) with the sun and internal gears in 2nd and 4th.
I looked int he 56 manual and suspected the planetary gears as well. Three questions about this though:
1. Would a normal rebuilder/rebuild look at these and make sure they are good?
2. Would the whining be caused by worn gears?
3. Can you even get a set of these???

wbdeford

I don't know, but I am guessing it would be wear in the spindles the planet gears turn on.  There is a procedure in the manual for checking the play in the gears, so someone you are paying for a rebuild should check that.

The front planet carrier is integral with the driving torus (see attached picture).  info@autotran.us is a good place to try. 

There is good news....disassembly to get to the torus is minimal--just the flywheel, a snap ring, the driven torus, and two more snap rings, and then the driving torus pulls right out.  Reassembly is just as easy.  Bad news is, you still have to separate the transmission from the engine.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

cadman56

I have been around many 56's in my life.  The noise I heard in your video is gear noise. I would not be driving it anymore as you may be causing damage. 
It is normal for these trannys to have a very mild whine in park.  Mine would very mildly whine at speed.  The gentleman who helped me with my rebuild went to GM's transmission school in 1958 & knew these trannys inside & out.
I also used transmission fluid from a tractor supply house, not Dexron.  It is more like the old fluid used in Caddy's in the 50's.
Good luck,
Larry
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville (sold)
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible (Sold)
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

savemy67

Hello Ben,

For $1500, do you know exactly what was done to the transmission?  Was it completely disassembled and inspected?  The planetary gearsets are usually not a "hidden" part of another sub-assembly that needs to be taken apart to reveal the planetary gearset.  The planetary gearsets should be inspected for excessive wear, chipped teeth, pinion gear end play, and the condition of any bronze or Torrington thrust washers.  As part of the whole planetary gearset, but not part of the planet carrier, are the separate sun gear and ring gear.  These should have been inspected as well, and then the entire planetary gearset inspected for good gear meshing and smooth operation when turned by hand.

The whining could be caused by worn gears.  The '56 manual should explain what rotates in which speed so you may be able to eliminate some gears.  I would venture to guess that obtaining another planetary gearset would be difficult, but not impossible.  Check a Master Parts book to see if other years interchange.  Good luck.

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Jon S

You didn't respond - does it make any strange noises at different RPM's in Neutral?
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

chstitans42


chstitans42

Quote from: chstitans42 on November 06, 2015, 10:20:53 PM
I will check tomorrow
Yes it does seem to make the noises in Neutral when the gas is applied

Jon S

I had that feeling. Not sure what it is, but it could be vacuum-related. Since the transmission appears to shift and perform fine and there is no vacuum connections to the 1956 hydramatic, it may be an engine- related issue.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

wbdeford

#18
Quote from: Jon S on November 07, 2015, 09:34:02 PM
I had that feeling. Not sure what it is, but it could be vacuum-related. Since the transmission appears to shift and perform fine and there is no vacuum connections to the 1956 hydramatic, it may be an engine- related issue.

Even when the engine is in Neutral or Park, the front unit of the transmission turns in reduction, which means the planet gears turn.  The only time the front unit planet gears don't turn (in relation to the sun gear and internal gear) is in 2nd and 4th speeds.

Everything still points to the front unit of the transmission as the source of the noise.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

wbdeford

#19
The attached picture from a '58 is of the front unit sun gear and internal gear with the planet gears removed.  The larger gear (called "internal gear" because the teeth are in the inside) is *always* turning at engine speed.  The smaller gear (the sun gear) *never* is allowed to turn counter clockwise, as it is prevented from doing that by the sprag clutch.  This forces the planet gears to turn between these two gears and move around the sun gear clockwise, at a speed slower than the engine.  This power is transferred back to the rear unit, where neutral can be created, but the front unit itself can never be in neutral.

The sun gear is driven clockwise in 2nd and 4th speeds, which causes the whole thing to turn as a unit, leaving the planet gears stationary on their pins.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville