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1962 (Hearse) not changing into 3rd/4th

Started by rustytractor, November 16, 2015, 06:00:11 PM

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rustytractor

Well today was the first time i'd driven my newly acquired 1962 Miller Meteor Hearse more than 20 feet.

All went went when I first started off but it refused to change up from 2nd so it was a very slow 6 mile drive.

It didn't seem to matter what position the gear lever was in - I tried with the selection indicator needle pointing to both the left and right hand drive positions and also "L" but nothing made any difference. The car pulled away from a standstill in any of these postioins. The movement between getting drive and no drive in the "N" position seemed a bit close together (probably just my imagination), I also tried slightly moving the lever out of the indicated drive positions to see if the lever was out of calibration but again no difference was found (my '41 Sedan, '62 Coupe and '64 Coupe all suffer with this "out of whack" issue - I'm just too lazy to fix them)

It was a bit too dark to check the fluid level which I'll do in the morning - if it's not down to fluid is there anything simple that springs to anyone's mind that could rectify this without major expense ?

I'll have a chat with the guy who sold it to me in the morning and see what he says. :(
Too many cars - too little time !!

Dan LeBlanc

#1
First try adjusting the TV rod as per the shop manual. Sounds like it's out of whack holding the car in a lower gear.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

rustytractor

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on November 16, 2015, 06:03:05 PM
First try adjusting the TV rod as per the shop manual. Sounds like it's out of whack to mensure holding the car in a lower gear.

Thanks Dan, I'm not sure if have the '62 shop manual - do you (or anyone else) have a copy and could scan and email over the relevant pages ? My email is rustytractor@hotmail.co.uk

Sorry to be a pain.


Too many cars - too little time !!

Glen

The first thing should be to make sure the fluid is to the full mark on the dip stick with the engine running.  If it does not shift at all the problem may be the governor is not working.     
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

rustytractor

Quote from: Glen on November 17, 2015, 01:28:36 AM
The first thing should be to make sure the fluid is to the full mark on the dip stick with the engine running.  If it does not shift at all the problem may be the governor is not working.   

I checked fluid level (engine warm, idling and in Park) and the level was slightly low but above minimum. I topped up but it made no difference.

Do these early Hydramatic's have a vacuum (or mechanical) modulator valve ?
Too many cars - too little time !!

Dan LeBlanc

Hi Russ

It's all done via the TV rod.

In a nutshell, first make sure your accelerator linkage is adjusted properly.

To adjust the TV rod, back off the two nuts at the trunnion where the TV rod attaches to the carburetor linkage.  Insert a 3/8" drill bit into a hole in the relay on the firewall where the pedal linkage attaches to the carburetor linkage.  It's there, kind of out of sight.  This locks the accelerator linkage in place.

Then, push the TV rod toward the rear of the car until it stops, but not with enough pressure to create any sort of binding force.

Tighten the front nut until it touches the trunnion, and then give it three more full turns.

Tighten the rear jam nut against the trunnion.

Road test.

You may need to make minor adjustments (no more than 1/8) of a turn either in or out to get it just right to get the 2-3 shift as minimally jerky as possible and still have a downshift when depressing the accelerator pedal to the floor.

If that doesn't work, the governor may be sticking.  Some folks I know have a somewhat crude, but effective way to free it up by backing up at about 10-20mph and then without stopping, shift into low.

One of our members in the 61/62 Cadillac Owner's Group may be able to elaborate on that part a bit more.  Feel free to join us:  http://midcenturycadillacs.com/index.php?c=9
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

rustytractor

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on November 18, 2015, 07:32:39 AM
Hi Russ

It's all done via the TV rod.

In a nutshell, first make sure your accelerator linkage is adjusted properly.

To adjust the TV rod, back off the two nuts at the trunnion where the TV rod attaches to the carburetor linkage.  Insert a 3/8" drill bit into a hole in the relay on the firewall where the pedal linkage attaches to the carburetor linkage.  It's there, kind of out of sight.  This locks the accelerator linkage in place.

Then, push the TV rod toward the rear of the car until it stops, but not with enough pressure to create any sort of binding force.

Tighten the front nut until it touches the trunnion, and then give it three more full turns.

Tighten the rear jam nut against the trunnion.

Road test.

You may need to make minor adjustments (no more than 1/8) of a turn either in or out to get it just right to get the 2-3 shift as minimally jerky as possible and still have a downshift when depressing the accelerator pedal to the floor.

If that doesn't work, the governor may be sticking.  Some folks I know have a somewhat crude, but effective way to free it up by backing up at about 10-20mph and then without stopping, shift into low.

One of our members in the 61/62 Cadillac Owner's Group may be able to elaborate on that part a bit more.  Feel free to join us:  http://midcenturycadillacs.com/index.php?c=9

Thanks for this Dan, I'm not looking at the car while reading this so its a little confusing but I'm sure it'll make sense when my head is stuck under the hood.

Am I correct in thinking all of these adjustments are done from under the hood ? Do you think it's likely that this type of fault could be cured by a simple adjustment ?

I spoke with the dealer who sold me the car and he told me they test drove the car for around 30 mins up to 50mph before shipping and it was fine (and as he's a car dealer I of course believe EVERY word he says....).  That said, he does seem willing to help sort this so hopefully he's pretty straight.
Too many cars - too little time !!

Dan LeBlanc

A maladjusted tv rod can definitely prevent the car from upshifting. Yup. The adjustments are all done under the hood.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

rustytractor

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on November 18, 2015, 07:32:39 AM
Hi Russ

It's all done via the TV rod.

In a nutshell, first make sure your accelerator linkage is adjusted properly.

To adjust the TV rod, back off the two nuts at the trunnion where the TV rod attaches to the carburetor linkage.  Insert a 3/8" drill bit into a hole in the relay on the firewall where the pedal linkage attaches to the carburetor linkage.  It's there, kind of out of sight.  This locks the accelerator linkage in place.

Then, push the TV rod toward the rear of the car until it stops, but not with enough pressure to create any sort of binding force.

Tighten the front nut until it touches the trunnion, and then give it three more full turns.

Tighten the rear jam nut against the trunnion.

Road test.

You may need to make minor adjustments (no more than 1/8) of a turn either in or out to get it just right to get the 2-3 shift as minimally jerky as possible and still have a downshift when depressing the accelerator pedal to the floor.

If that doesn't work, the governor may be sticking.  Some folks I know have a somewhat crude, but effective way to free it up by backing up at about 10-20mph and then without stopping, shift into low.

One of our members in the 61/62 Cadillac Owner's Group may be able to elaborate on that part a bit more.  Feel free to join us:  http://midcenturycadillacs.com/index.php?c=9

Thanks for this Dan, I've had a quick look and think I understand what you mean but just wanted to check something with you first.

The car has been fitted with an Edelbrock carb. I've attached some pix of the carb, where the linkages attach and what I believe is the relay.

Does this carb in any way affect the ajustment process ? I wont be able to look at my '62 Coupe until tomorrow to confirm this but are the rods attached in the same position as with a standard carb ?
Too many cars - too little time !!

Dan LeBlanc

The proper geometry is critical. I'd try the adjustment anyway but I think you may need to fabricate a bracket to relocate the TV rod to the correct location.

From what I see, the rod is adjusted way too tight and is definitely your problem.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Jon S

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on November 21, 2015, 01:15:18 PM
The proper geometry is critical. I'd try the adjustment anyway but I think you may need to fabricate a bracket to relocate the TV rod to the correct location.

From what I see, the rod is adjusted way too tight and is definitely your problem.

Agreed - I would back it out to where the threads look more silver than blue - about 15 turns from the front end for starters.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

russ austin

Yup, the TV rod is at the wrong geometry. The TV rod should pull away from the transmission, as the throttle is applied.  Right now, the TV rod move away, and then back towards the trans. 

Make a simple bracket, so the TV rod pulls away in an arc, and doesn't move back towards the trans.   
R.Austin

rustytractor

#12
Ok, so does this mean that the wrong edelbrock carb has been fitted or are the brackets the same on all edelbrock carbs ?

Also, would the original carb be a Rochester or a Carter ?
Too many cars - too little time !!

Jon S

#13
This is how the factory setup is. If you can obtain or fabricate something similar you should be OK. Hope this helps.

It looks like your TV Rod eccentric piece is attached incorrectly and should facilitate attaching the TV Rod below the accelerator linkage to make the hardware pull the TV rod upon acceleration.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

rustytractor

Quote from: Jon S on November 21, 2015, 06:19:35 PM
This is how the factory setup is. If you can obtain or fabricate something similar you should be OK. Hope this helps.

It looks like your TV Rod eccentric piece is attached incorrectly and should facilitate attaching the TV Rod below the accelerator linkage to make the hardware pull the TV rod upon acceleration.

It didn't look right to me which is why I mentioned looking at my 62 Coupe tomorrow but this pretty much confirms it. I presume the setup on my '60 Eureka would be the same ?

I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can work a solution out short term but long term I'll probably try to locate an original carb as I don't really like non standard stuff like aftermarket carbs and air filters etc.
Too many cars - too little time !!

Dan LeBlanc

Carter or Rochester. Both have similar geometry.

The TV linkage from a Carter can be easily adapted to the Edelbrock. I think even 2 of the holes line up to existing holes in the linkage. I know several people running edelbrock carbur8that have the TV located correctly without issue.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Dan LeBlanc

If you do locate a correct carburetor, find a Carter. They are the easiest of the two to work on and seem to be the most friendly. You'll also need the stainless shim that goes between the top gasket and carburetor base to isolate it from the hot exhaust gases passing through the crossover beneath the carb.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

rustytractor

So.......

Based on the way the current carb is set up the TV rod (what does TV mean by the way ??) would never have worked meaning the car wouldn't have shifted to 3rd/4th

This means they're not being totally honest about having fully road tested the car for 30 minutes at speeds of up to 50 mph before shipping the car over (at least not without blowing the engine up due to being stuck in 2nd gear).

If this is the case I will have a somewhat disgruntled conversation with them first thing Monday morning!!!

Too many cars - too little time !!

Dan LeBlanc

That pretty much sums it up.

Just to isolate,  disconnect it and take it out for a couple miles to see if you have all gears. Just don't drive it very long that way as it could kill the transmission. A mile or two won't hurt. 
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Jon S

It stands for Throttle Valve Rod and is often referred to as the kick down rod. Newer cars use a cable in place if a fixed rod.

I would be careful about driving it with the rod disconnected, but yes the previous seller's claim sounds suspicious
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT