How common is water leakage through convertible tops on 1970 models?

[J.C.]

Several years ago, I bought an old '70 DeVille Convertible that was in pretty rough shape.  I decided to splurge and have what I thought was a very reputable restoration shop in northern Nevada do some work on the car, including replacing the convertible top and fixing related problems.  After I paid the owner of that shop a lot of money to do this - and I mean just days after - I noticed that copious amounts a water flowed right through the sealed top inside the car and down into the door panels whenever it rained.  Is this a very common problem with '70 DeVille Convertibles, or did the shop just screw-up the job?  I need to know because I'm thinking of taking another shot at a '70 Convertible - one in much better condition - but I'm worried I'll experience that same issue.  I know it's tough to reach solid conclusions based on the little I've written here, but can I rest assured that a '70 Convertible top, properly redone and maintained, can probably stay dry inside when it rains?  I'd appreciate any insights anyone might offer!  Thanks!

[Scot Minesinger]

John,

On the drive from VA to Boston for GN 2013 we suffered thru a driving rain for the first 300 miles at mostly highway speeds.  My 1970 Cadillac convertible was nice and dry.  Funny after the rain ended strong sun emerged and the last 100 miles was a wonderful top down drive.  When I bought the car in 2005 to make it dry you have to:

1.  Replace all of the rubber seals on the top bow and along the sides (total of 7)
2.  Replace the seal between the quarter window and driver window (total of 2)  Replace pillar seal between driver window and front windshield (2 per car)
3.  Replace the rubber seals along top of door that seal against glass (total of 4), be careful here as done wrong windows strain to go up and down)
4.  Replace door rubber seals on three sides (one continuous piece per door, 2 total)
5.  replace the rubber seal visible when door is open that seals edge of quarter window (2 total)
6.  Obviously your top must leak free
7.  Here is the tough one - make sure your windows are all aligned correctly, this takes someone who knows what they are doing.
8.  Make sure the gutter that catches rain that leaks between top in back and stainless trim strip is properly functioning with no clogs in drain.

In general the 1970 Cadillac convertible does not suffer a problem on this issue.  If you want a leak fixed all these issues must be addressed and checked.  Better to take your car to a shop and say fix the leaks, rather than telling him what you think the leaks are and he only fixes those.  Ask about all 8 items.  If he does not understand or questions them run like heck to another place.  Some shops may only be good at replacing the top.

The 1970 Cadillac top was the same for all Cadillacs 1965 thru 1970, except the 65 had a few very minimal differences.  All of the parts in items one thru eight are available as new reproductions today.  This aspect of our hobby is well supported.  All the rubber parts will run about $1,000.  BTW might as well get the trunk seal too, as that is likely to need replacement too. 

When inspecting a convertible for sale, look at all the rubber seals.  If they are brittle, chipped or otherwise flawed you know it is going to cost at least 2k to have them all replaced, and then the car will be worth fifteen cents more - no one fixes them because the value of the car does not go up.  Check window alignment with top down and all windows up.  Look from inside car with top up and windows up - any gaps?  Look at window alignment with top up and windows up, open and close both doors, checking for nice alignment of windows against rubber seals.

Remember the adage that the least expensive Cadillac is the nicest one you can afford.  A great example is on this discussion thread where a pristine example was for sale at 22k, and another was purchased for 7k with problems.  It will cost way more than 15k to bring the 7k car to the 22k car quality, like at least 30k.  If a convertible needs a new top run.  For GM scissor tops offered on Eldorados 1971-76 and full size GM from 1971 thru 1975, it is a problem: operate top up and down ten times during test drive, and it should have a glass back window.  Leave the basket cases to the restorers that do the work themselves.  Anyone who says the "AC just needs a charge" is not being honest, who sells a 10k plus car that needs a $200 service.  I routinely deduct 5k from any car that "just needs a charge", and I have fixed many climate control systems.  That all written, it is not easy to find a nice one.

What area of the Country do you live in?

[76eldo]

It's not a common problem.

I drove a 70 DeVille convert every day in the late 70's and then a different one in the 80's and in between had a couple of 76 Eldo converts.  Never had a chronic leakage problem.

There are openings in the bottoms of the doors and in the bottom of the quarters.
These are drain holes and they look like slits. If you had the car at a body shop there could be an accumulation of dust and dirt that got inside of these cavities and have plugged up your drains.

If you move the car back and forth after a rain you may even hear some sloshing of water if these are all plugged up. When they are blocked any accumulated water will come out from the first opening above the door or quarter bottom.

I'd start there. It that is not the problem there may be a plastic trough behind the top I. The well area that could be cracked, broken, or missing.

Hope this helps.

Brian

[cadillac ken]

Steven Tuck's convertible guy is right.  All convertibles will leak with enough speed and driving rain.  I live in Florida, believe me, I know.

Interestingly even Porsche states that their convertibles are not meant to provide a water tight environment (from new).

History shows that some of the first coupes sold for more money than the pull up convertible top models of the same make and year.  The ads proclaimed a quieter ride and protection from the elements.

[Scot Minesinger]

My 1970 convertible does not leak.  I have been through some terrible afternoon thunderstorms during highway driving.

This thinking that it is OK that it does is why they do, people don't keep them in proper repair.  Back in 1970, Cadillac claimed that this was the only luxury convertible, and if leaked when new that would be pathetic and a source of customer complaints.  I remember well how nice cars drove in the 1970's and this "well it is an old car" excuse for poor mechanical repairs does not work for me.  These cars will built to drive perfectly at 90 mph 8 hours at a time.  Lyndon Johnson outran the press driving his Eldorado in TX on the highway with no speed limits.  Who would not do that if they could?

I would not sell my 1970 Cadillacs because almost all the bugs are out of them, that can be torturous, tedious, aggravating and frustrating to correct.  Now I learn that the no leak thing is hard to fix on a convertible, making me all the more reluctant to sell.  Guess that is why most cars for sale need something.

BTW my Dad's 1970 Olds 442 convertible he drove throughout the 1970's as a daily driver never leaked ever, and the top was replaced once.

I agree cars of today are way better built and engineered, just not as cool as the older ones.  Plus new cars do not offer a RWD V-8 convertible in an American make that does not signal -mid life crises (Camaro and Mustang), or I probably would never entered the hobby.

[cadillac ken]

you are one lucky man Scott.  I've owned my Restoration Shop for 24 years. I can say your experiences are unique.

[76eldo]

If the water is flowing into the car from the top, coming inside, running down the glass, and into the door panel, then wither the top is not installed correctly and water is running into the arms from the top of the car, or the weatherstripping has failed, or windows are not aligned.'

By design, the water should shed off of the top and his the doorglass about an inch down from the top.

Brian

[Scot Minesinger]

Ken,

Thanks and I really am lucky.  If you owned just one classic convertible yourself for ten years, and drove it about 3 to 4k miles per year, sparing it nothing ever, I'm sure your car would not leak either.  By sparing my baby nothing, I even replaced the nylon factory bushings with the nice brass remanufactured units (Convertible Top Services in CA sells them for like $100, complete with wave washers), a link with rivet pivot wore an oval hole - had to buy a complete top system to replace the link - stuff like that which no one ever notices.

Graduating high school in 1979, really no one's convertible from the late 60's/early 70's leaked, except for MG's and cars never really intended to be weather tight.  By 1970 convertibles were fairly weather tight.  My best friend's 1970 Mustang convertible never leaked.

I have a lot invested in the interior, so a leak would a real bad thing for me.

[Jeff Wilk]

Hey guys, if installed correctly AND ALL the seals, weather strips, etc, are as pliable as should be these cars should not leak. My 75 Eldorado with 58,000 original miles even with an original and worn top does not leak in heavy driving rain.....

Jeff

[J.C.]

What area of the Country do you live in?

I live in Delray Beach, Florida, near Ft. Lauderdale.  Thanks for your detailed response!

[J.C.]

Was the car leaking prior to the new top being installed?

I don't know because I never drove the car before I sent it off to the restorer.  What I do remember is that I paid that restorer a huge amount of cash and got a car back that looked flawless but still didn't drive quite right, leaked, and had an electrical fault and/or fuse problem that meant I had to replace a fuse every 3rd or 4th time I tried to start the car, which would refuse to start after that time without a new fuse.

When I bought this car, I hadn't heard the advice about the least expensive Cadillac being the most expensive one affordable.  I didn't, as stated somewhere above, leave the disasters to the restorers.  I ended up selling the car for a fraction of what I'd spent on it.  I was too hung-up on the fact that it was a color and exact model I liked.  I would very much like to do a lot of homework this time, know what I'm getting into, and not repeat those costly mistakes.

[55 cadi]

My 66 mustang was a convertable and my daily driver, everyday to and from work, weekends out cruising and put about 30k miles a year, probably more.

It did not leak.

I lived in California so when it wasn't raining the top was down, but through the 16 years of owning there were years with a lot of rain, and never had a problem during those times, the design I guess was very good. Even during the severe rain in 97' or 98' it held up fine, and that was a very heavy El Niño year.

Yes I know it's not a Cadillac but just mentioning that convertibles do have good seals. If a new convertible leaks then they would not sell.

[76eldo]

John,

If the leak is not coming from an obvious spot, I would contact Convertible Top Specialists, or Hydro Electric.  They are both companies that sell convertible tops and related parts.  They are both located in Florida and I am sure they can recommend a top notch top shop near you that can sort out the top leak.

Try Hydro Electric first.  They are a bit more customer friendly.   www.hydroe.com

Brian

[Rich S]

Thanks for that detailed list and explanation of those eight items, Scot. My '71 Eldorado scissors top has been replaced once and it does not leak, although perhaps at upper highway speeds in a heavy rain I have experienced a few drips from the windshield header area (I've owned it since 2004). When I first replaced the top, from a reputable installer, there was water leaking into the trunk when in wet conditions--rain or washing the car. (It was not from the louvers found on the trunk of a '71 Eldorado.) I was told it was because the bow under the rear deck had corroded and the installer had to send it somewhere to trade it for a refurbished one--then tack the roof to this. (Other people have told me he simply forgot to tack it at the bottom but told me it was due to the condition of the bow under the deck.) In doing this procedure, he damaged the second replacement top, causing him to have to install another top--or so he told me. I was told this because the area of the front of the top against the windshield was finished differently compared to the first replacement--to my disappointment--and he claimed at that point he was losing money and could not have his same trim person do the detail work around the front of the top. I learned that although I had been told I was dealing with the best shop for tops in my area, it was not. I wish I knew this information prior to replacing my top back in 2005. Nonetheless, the top operates well and it looks very nice, just not as perfect as the first replacement one's smooth, taut, factory new appearance. 

[Scot Minesinger]

John,

Yes, repair shops and restoration shops seem to always leave things like what you described.  The proper way to execute all the work you hired out is to drive it for a week or two after it is finished and get the bugs out of it.  Unless a high wage earner with experience is working on the car constantly for the most minimal details it gets messed.  My son was working with me and on the 1970 SDV and I had to go back and take the power servo out for the climate control for some reason.  Anyway the ground screw had stripped and the ground connection was no good.  It would have taken me many hours to find out why the climate control was not working later after ever single component was removed, tested, reconditioned and then replaced.  After an exhausting teaching moment with my son about how if you ever install a screw that is stripped I will disinherit you I hope he will never do it again.

The final check on a restore is vital and so important, yet completely counter to business and cash flow.  Plus no one is wiling to pay.  On a car I owned the rag joint was questionable, and so I rebuilt it because replacements were no longer available.  After all the work making it look new, and reinstalling I had 8 hours into it.  Who is going to pay $400 for a rag joint?, yet it is done correctly.  When the car had a weird feel at the steering column, people would pay more than $400 to cure it, but not $400 at the beginning.  Restoring cars is a tough business.  That is why I do it myself whenever possible.

[jaxops]

Water should never leak in a convertible, especially a 1970.  I had to replace my header bow seal until I got one that actually sealed.  Door alignment and windows that seal as stated earlier are all essential.

[jwjohnson86]

Of course, you can also drive only on sunny days and minimize your chances of not getting caught in a sudden rain storm!  Seriously, I've encountered rain a couple times with no leaks.  I am fortunate that my top was redone a couple years before I purchased the car and the workmanship appears to be of very high quality.  I did replace the pillar seals on both sides (set for $29), and I will be ordering the quarter edge window seals for next spring as some of the rubber is torn away and missing.  My trunk seal is shot but again, I am not washing the car with water, using a waterless product called DriWash recommended by a friend who uses it on a classic Mustang.  Just don't want to spray any more water into areas where it can't escape if I can avoid it as I have a couple small rust pinholes in a rocker already.

[Series75]

Hey John,  i hope you are finding all this experience, advice and guidance meets your needs shopping for a 1970 Cadillac, whether it's a Fleetwood or a Deville convert.    Why not join our Cadillac LaSalle Club?  It would be a productive New Years resolution!  Tom CLC 6866