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power steering whine

Started by TonyZappone #2624, January 06, 2016, 05:31:41 AM

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TonyZappone #2624

I had the original carburetor on my '58 convertible rebuilt.  Brought it back yesterday and left it overnite to have the choke set properly.  I asked them to check the whine in the power steering.  When I returned the whine was gone.  Told me that the fluid breaks down and air gets in the vanes, hence the whine.  They sucked it all out, and replaced it with a thicker Lucas product, topping off what was needed after the larger Lucas container was exhausted with regular power steering fluid.  They related that unless the pump is really hosed, this remedy works most of the time.  Quiet again.
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

J. Gomez

Tony,

My basic understanding of PSF it’s the same as ATF less all of the derivatives ATF uses, using PSF instead of ATF should be fine. As for adding the Lucas product, if they used the Lucas PSF conditioner which is a conditioner in my opinion the same effect would be if you use ATF.

Do you know what Lucas product the use to thicken the mix?

As for their comment “Told me that the fluid breaks down and air gets in the vanes, hence the whine”,  :o well no comments, but I do have the next winning numbers for the power ball for sale. No pun intended…!  ;)

Taking the pump apart for inspection and replacing the bearings if needed would be my best option, as it is an easy task. Just hope the PS box is happy with the new mix.
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

TonyZappone #2624

I will find the name of the Lucas product.  Push comes to shove, the noise is gone.
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

76eldo

Lucas products are great.

If a pour-in solution works, I say go with it.  If it starts getting noisy again, then deal with it.

I use Lucas Hot Rod 10-30 oil in all of my older cars to hopefully protect the cam/lifter wear due ti the added zinc.  I have also used Lucas trans and power steering additives to fix leaks that so far have stayed fixed.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

TonyZappone #2624

I don't quite understand why you would be suspect of a product that worked, immediately, and well.  The name of it is Lucas Power steering stop leak, see it on Amazon, along with its other stated attributes.  Send me the power ball ticket, and I will forward you the $2.00 plus the .44 for the stamp.
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

Dan LeBlanc

Quote from: TonyZappone #2624 on January 06, 2016, 03:58:50 PM
I don't quite understand why you would be suspect of a product that worked, immediately, and well.  The name of it is Lucas Power steering stop leak, see it on Amazon, along with its other stated attributes.  Send me the power ball ticket, and I will forward you the $2.00 plus the .44 for the stamp.

$0.44 for a stamp?  That's cheap. Here in Canada, it's up to $1.00 now (0.85 if you buy a booklet).

Lucas stuff is great. I have a friend that added their transmission stuff to a Jetaway that was slow shifting and wouldn't always shift into 4th. Within a mile of adding it, the transmission was shifting like new. 
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

savemy67

Hello Tony,

I don't think J. Gomez is necessarily negating the efficacy of the Lucas product categorically.  He may be considering that the power steering system had a symptom (the whine), and the Lucas product may have relieved the symptom, but may not have cured the problem.

Some of the Cadillac shop manuals indicate that a whine in the power steering can be caused by low fluid levels, air in the system, external leaks, or leaks internal to the pump or steering gear.  The power steering filler opening is at the highest point of  the system so that air can work its way back to the reservoir and vent to the atmosphere.  Air can get into a system by not minding the fluid level, via a loose or leaking hose, or by way of a defective external seal.  You would probably notice an external leak.  The Lucas product may or may not resolve a problem with a leaky seal.  If your system was low on fluid, the Lucas product or ATF would resolve that issue.  An internal leak will probably not be visible externally, but an internal leak may affect the hydraulic function of the control valve or rack piston.  This may not be noticeable in the steering feel, but could be evidenced by a whine.  The Lucas product may or may not help resolve an internal leak.  The fluid may break down due to excessive heat, age, and contamination, but it is highly unlikely that fluid breakdown causes the rotary pump vanes to create air in the system unless air is already present.

There are as many different approaches to resolving issues with our Cadillacs as there are Cadillac owners.  J. Gomez is probably of a mind to repair a system so that it works as it was designed, in this case, the power steering system is designed to work with ATF, and Lucas (or any other product) is not necessary.  However, the Lucas product may be more economical for you and how you drive your car, and that is a valid reason for you to use the Lucas product.  Hopefully you will have good results with the Lucas product, but remember that the whole premise of Lucas, or any other manufacturer of this type of product, is to forestall the eventual repair of a worn or defective part.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

TonyZappone #2624

Christopher:  Your response is well thought out, and pedantically perfect.  I have always had a reputation for having only nice cars, usually excellent original cars, spiffed up somewhat.  I think it goes back to the early 60's when I learned my lesson having bought some real lizards.  I think my philosophy would be not to go looking for more problems, than what seem to be there.  If this thing starts whining again, in the next ten years (before my 85th birthday), I will probably investigate further.  Thanks for your feedback.
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

Jon S

Tony -

I've never had a whine with my '58, but a few years ago I sucked as much fluid as I could out of the pump and replaced it as preventive maintenance with fresh ATF fluid.  It still works perfectly and is very quiet.  Original hoses still look good.

I have used Lucas products on my other cars and they make top notch stuff.  If it's quiet now, I'm sure it will remain that way.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

TonyZappone #2624

Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

walt chomosh #23510

I have 5 cars in my garage and driveway....I changed the PS fluid on every one of them in the last month and a half.(as I got around to each of them) I'm not sure what the factory recommends on them,I just did it.(I also rplc my brake fluid every two years in each of them)...walt...tulsa,ok

TJ Hopland

When I first get my hands on a used car what I have been doing is suck out the reservoir, refill, start,  run the wheel side to side a couple times, stop, suck, refill, and so on maybe 3-5 times.   That usually get it looking a lot better and is not as messy as trying to pull a line off and flush and refill at the same time. 

On all my cars that I work on myself what I do is suck and refill the reservoir at every oil change.    I have gone back and fourth on what I use for fluid, most of the time I use a universal power steering fluid.  The 70's-80's Gm stuff does not really seem to care.  One reason for that is its clear vs red for the trans.   It can make it easier to identify leaks.    Some of the 90's and newer stuff seems to be really sensitive to the fluid.   Have run into a lot of stuff that whines and looked up what its supposed to have and put that in and it quiets down.   Some of the 90's Fords wanted type F.  By that time their transmissions didn't even use that.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Jon S

Quote from: TJ Hopland on January 13, 2016, 11:15:20 AM
On all my cars that I work on myself what I do is suck and refill the reservoir at every oil change.    I have gone back and fourth on what I use for fluid, most of the time I use a universal power steering fluid.  The 70's-80's Gm stuff does not really seem to care.  One reason for that is its clear vs red for the trans.   It can make it easier to identify leaks.    Some of the 90's and newer stuff seems to be really sensitive to the fluid.   Have run into a lot of stuff that whines and looked up what its supposed to have and put that in and it quiets down.   Some of the 90's Fords wanted type F.  By that time their transmissions didn't even use that.   

The Power Steering fluid is normally good for 15 - 20 years.  Changing it every oil change is a bit of over-kill!
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

TJ Hopland

Quote from: Jon S on January 13, 2016, 01:21:17 PM
The Power Steering fluid is normally good for 15 - 20 years.  Changing it every oil change is a bit of over-kill!

15-20 years?  I don't think I would go that long even on something I almost never drove.  For sure would not go that long on anything with a rack and pinion, those have lots of 'soft' parts in em and don't tend to be cheap or easy to repair.  Even the old stuff seems to benefit from fresh fluid just to keep seals happy.

Maybe a little overkill but a gallon jug cost a little over $10 and lasts me about a year unless I have something that is leaking.   Some of my cars only get one change a year so we are only talking about maybe 10 ounces of fluid a year.  Daily drivers get more changes but more miles so it still does not add up to much.  I do it while I am waiting for the oil to drain so it really does not take any more time.   A little old fluid out and a little fresh in with fresh additives I figure can't hurt.   With the quality of replacement parts these days if a couple bucks in fluid keeps stuff going longer it seems well worth it. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Aprules2

I drove around with a bad pump on my 75 for a couple months and then every new pump I put in would fail after a week or so. So I guess it had some sediment in the system. So put in my new pump then  I took the return line off the back of the pump and put it in a bucket, then capped the return line fitting on the pump. Then rigged up a set up with a gallon jug and a gallon of ATF to feed the pump had my girl friend start the car and as soon as it pumped the gallon out she shut it off. I filled the system with synthetic  Dexron/Mercron ATF and one of the lucas stop leaks and it hasnt whined and the fluid hasnt gotten dark at all even after 10k miles. Its a great thing to try.

Ive also done the same thing on cars with the power steering whine without replacing the pump and its always worked well for me.

TJ Hopland

For those that are curious this is similar to the model I use.   Mine is older and a little larger but otherwise looks very similar.    I bought it originally maybe 10 years ago for some engine I had that didn't have a drain plug but have found many uses for it since then.   One of the tools I can't believe I lived without. 




http://www.lowes.com/pd_141690-60928-2005_0__?k_clickID=88761306-069f-4182-8902-292f11d37d4b&store_code=2627&productId=1016407&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

willits

Quote from: Jon S on January 13, 2016, 01:21:17 PM
The Power Steering fluid is normally good for 15 - 20 years.  Changing it every oil change is a bit of over-kill!

On my '58 the pump has always whined when the fluid gets even a little bit low.   Top it off with ATF and it is fine.   Mine does not leak so this is maybe once a year if that often.

As for fluid changes, I changed mine sometime last century, but I do check and clean the filter every year.   

Peter
Peter Willits
1958 Coupe DeVille http://bit.ly/1O6BGVu
1961 62 Convertible http://bit.ly/1O6BHst
2008 STS-V http://bit.ly/1O6CI3P

Jon S

Quote from: willits on January 15, 2016, 04:04:07 AM
On my '58 the pump has always whined when the fluid gets even a little bit low.   Top it off with ATF and it is fine.   Mine does not leak so this is maybe once a year if that often.

As for fluid changes, I changed mine sometime last century, but I do check and clean the filter every year.   

Peter

What filter?  Not aware of a PS filter on a 1958.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

willits

Quote from: Jon S on January 15, 2016, 10:05:19 AM
What filter?  Not aware of a PS filter on a 1958.
It is more a screen like the one in the carburetor than a filter.  It is in the reservoir and attaches by a clip to the inlet on the return line.   You can get an idea where it is supposed to be in the diagram.   I can pull mine out and take a picture next time I'm in the garage if you want.
Peter

Peter Willits
1958 Coupe DeVille http://bit.ly/1O6BGVu
1961 62 Convertible http://bit.ly/1O6BHst
2008 STS-V http://bit.ly/1O6CI3P

Jon S

Interesting. I had no idea. PS works just fine and is quiet. Will leave the sleeping dog be. Thanks!
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT