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Experience rebuilding/buying/installing auto ride level system?

Started by CadillacMac, January 15, 2016, 10:38:19 AM

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CadillacMac

Probably a long shot, but then I found someone who rebuilds the cruise control mechanism, so I figured it didn't hurt to ask:  Does anyone know of someone who rebuilds or sells auto-ride leveling system on a 1965 Fleetwood?  Someone removed mine a long time ago, and I heard they were problematic, and I have working air shocks now. 

But I wanted to know if I found one at a junkyard, does anyone rebuild them, or is it just not worth the trouble to convert back?
“Ambition is a dream with a V8 engine. Ain't nowhere else in the world where you can go from driving a truck to a Cadillac overnight.”
― Elvis Presley

Glen

I think it is worth converting back.  But then I do all my own work on the 68 ELDO.  I’ve put a lot of miles on the car and have kept the ALC working all the time. 
If you find one of those compressors in a junk yard buy it.  If fact buy all of them you can find.  You may need them for parts.  You will need at least one with a good regulator The test is if it still has the yellow cap on it. 
When you get one or more post back here there are several of us that help you rebuild it and make the system work. 

Don’t forget to get the height valve from the rear axle if you don’t already have one. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

Glen,
Good advice.
Mac,
I have some for sale. Removed from Ca. cars years ago & dry stored.
Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

CadillacMac

“Ambition is a dream with a V8 engine. Ain't nowhere else in the world where you can go from driving a truck to a Cadillac overnight.”
― Elvis Presley

Scot Minesinger

Mac,

The Fleetwood was standard with level control.  There are two ways to go here that are near perfect functioning:

1.  Repair your ALC to full working order.
2.  Switch the rear springs and shocks to DeVille non-level control Rear springs and shocks.

If you are to GN and want authenticity I would go with option 1.  If you frequently load up the back of the car and drive long distances the ALC should be repaired (option 1.) so that the alignment and handling of the car is not compromised.

If the car will not be loaded up in back much and you are not going to go for a high ranking prize at GN, then I would use option 2.

The worst way to go is air shocks and no operational compressor.  The shocks have to be adjusted via adding and removing compressed air based on varying loads.  Interestingly many cure the problem this way, which I disagree with.

If you had an Eldorado which is also standard with ALC then ALC is more vital because there are no alternative springs for non-ALC equipped cars (leaf from 67-70), and the back is lighter and passengers and luggage change percentage of weight in back greater than RWD Cadillacs.

This is a difficult restoration, because very few have the knowledge to perform the work, you will probably need to do it yourself, or switch the springs and shocks on your Fleetwood.  If it were me, probably would go with option 2.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Scott,
Read the service manual.  ALC systems are simple in operation and repair.  Finding the parts is the only hard part.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Scot Minesinger

Greg,

You are right, but all the mechanics not in our club or this forum that are my experience and reality most often fail to read the shop manual even if you photocopy the pages and highlight it for them.

One reason I'm a fan of the 1970 mechanicals on a Cadillac is simplicity, no air pump and no fan clutch.  I like it when there are fewer things to fail.  Of course it is not difficult to convert other years to this level of simplicity/reliability.  If my RWD 1970 Cadillacs were equipped with ALC probably would convert to standard springs and shocks to avoid the possibility of a failure.  On an 1970 Eldorado probably would have to fix ALC.

I know these smog pumps, ALC and fan clutches lasted forever on everyone else's Cadillacs, just going for simplicity - less things to go wrong.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Scott,
Some people like everything to work as it was intended.  I have even heard of people who fix their car's clocks.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

TJ Hopland

StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Glen

Scot, if I was interested in simplicity I would have a Volkswagen bug.  It’s the “toys” on the Cadillacs that I like and I like them to work as they did when new.  For example, I know many people change the mechanical clock to electronic but I like the original with the automatic speed change when you set the clock.   

I think someone needs to work on finding some to make the parts.  They are not that difficult.  The piston seals are O rings.  The check valves are simple rubber pieces and the regulator parts can be turned on a lathe.  The only difficult part is the diaphragm.  And that is not really difficult compared to some rubber parts I have seen. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

CadillacMac

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on January 16, 2016, 08:35:21 AM
Mac,

The Fleetwood was standard with level control.  There are two ways to go here that are near perfect functioning:

1.  Repair your ALC to full working order.
2.  Switch the rear springs and shocks to DeVille non-level control Rear springs and shocks.

If you are to GN and want authenticity I would go with option 1.  If you frequently load up the back of the car and drive long distances the ALC should be repaired (option 1.) so that the alignment and handling of the car is not compromised.

If the car will not be loaded up in back much and you are not going to go for a high ranking prize at GN, then I would use option 2.

The worst way to go is air shocks and no operational compressor.  The shocks have to be adjusted via adding and removing compressed air based on varying loads.  Interestingly many cure the problem this way, which I disagree with.

If you had an Eldorado which is also standard with ALC then ALC is more vital because there are no alternative springs for non-ALC equipped cars (leaf from 67-70), and the back is lighter and passengers and luggage change percentage of weight in back greater than RWD Cadillacs.

This is a difficult restoration, because very few have the knowledge to perform the work, you will probably need to do it yourself, or switch the springs and shocks on your Fleetwood.  If it were me, probably would go with option 2.

Thanks Scot, but what I was saying before is I'm aware my car came with just about every option as standard, but over the years things were modified, stopped working or were removed.  At some point someone took off the ALC and added air shocks you can fill with a compressor.  I was just wondering how feasible it is to convert back to the original.  I'll probably tackle A/C and Cruise first, but it's on my list. 

---and I just learned my lesson that I need to SEARCH before I post.  I see I asked this question about 10 days after a serious ALC discussion had already been going on in this forum!  Looks like there's a lot of stuff I don't know about.  Apparently I need different springs?  A compressor for each axle?  Can my "valve behind the license plate" system be converted back over to the ALC? Just have the compressor fill where that valve would?
“Ambition is a dream with a V8 engine. Ain't nowhere else in the world where you can go from driving a truck to a Cadillac overnight.”
― Elvis Presley

Scot Minesinger

Mac,

If your ALC has been removed and the car is converted to the type where air shocks inflated manually, the correct springs likely remain in place.  Sounds like you are all set on info and have a decision to make.  In any event, enjoy your Cadillac, this is a nice winter project.


Glen,

If I go to hell the vehicle I drive will be a VW bug.  I really prefer Cadillacs especially, and larger American RWD V-8 cars.  By simplicity an example is the intake manifold mounted air conditioning compressor on the 472/500 Cadillacs with power steering pump idler pulley.  Rather than two separate adjustable belt drive pulley system, there is one.  The rugged compressor mount means less vibration, less wear on compressor bearings, and more reliable operation.  Simplicity and reliability is luxury.

The climate control, cruise control, power windows, power seats, power locks, trunk release, sound system, clock and etc. need to be working to make me happy driving my Cadillac.  The radio and clock can be modern rebuilds that look and operate very well, and it does not matter if the clock is quartz or not to me.  I think that the climate control of the 64-76 era in a Cadillac works better than my modern daily drivers, and it is reliable once n good repair.

The two deviations that I'm always willing to make on any RWD Cadillas are abandon ALC with non ACL springs and shocks, and use radial tires.  On the ALC back in the day people loaded their Cadillac with 4 kids and luggage in the trunk and drove to FL and ALC was essential.  Now we don't use our cars that way, and so I'm OK with no ALC on a RWD.  I think for FWD Cadillac Eldorados of the 1967-78 era you need the ALC.

I bought an electric compressor unit from a 1978 Eldorado, with low miles (for parts stock just in case) and it is understood that this can be used on the 71-77 Eldorados and maybe even the 67-70 Eldorados.  This would seem more reliable to me. 

To each their own.  Enjoy your Cadillac!
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

cadman56

Having successfully rebuilt the ALC system in my 67 Eldorado decades ago I can tell you there are many small moving parts inside the compressor.  They wear, especially the plastic parts, & they wear depressions in the aluminum piston were they operate.
The level sensing valve corrodes inside due to moisture.  If the dampening fluid is gone you can use the fluid inside old fan clutches.
The shop manual is completely adequate for rebuilding one IF you can find parts.
One of the biggest problems I found in all the compressor units I disassembled was dirt & carbon.  If I were to do it all over again I would relocate the air intake to the compressor away from the air cleaner.
Good luck, it isn't all that easy but is doable.
Larry
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville (sold)
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible (Sold)
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

mikanystrom

I just want to point something out!

The alternatives above are 1. "overhaul the compressor" (tricky, but Cadillacville sells working compressors, I believe, if you can get hold of him) and 2. "replace with non-ALC rear end".

There are two other alternatives! 

3. hook up the shocks for manual fill (I think most cars I have seen do this), maybe this is such a n obvious alternative you don't bother to mention it..

My preference is the fourth alternative...

4. get an air horn compressor and a half-gallon air tank from Amazon for about $100.  You can power the air compressor from the windshield wipers, for example.  Add a pressure switch and a relay and plumb it in like the original vacuum-powered compressor.  The only downside of this approach that I know is that the cheap air compressors can be quite noisy.  I mounted mine on the driver's side inner fender, right above the P/S cooler, and it's annoyingly noisy when the car starts up.  I would put it farther from the cabin if/when I do it again.  But it really does work and it's not a difficult modification.

I can send photos if anyone's interested in the install.  I cut off the legs of the air tank with an angle grinder and attached it to the big cross-brace under the hood with two giant hose clamps. 

I used the compressor and fittings from a VIAIR 10000 system but the air tank was too big so I got a smaller air tank from the same brand.  Used the stock "superlift valve" under the car to set the height.

     Mika
1970 De Ville Convertible
1993 Fleetwood Brougham
1970 Series 75 Formal Sedan
1968 Eldorado "Purple Sister"
------------------------------------------------
1976 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am 455 4-spd
1999 Camaro SS Convertible 6-spd
1999 Honda CBR 1100XX :-)

David King (kz78hy)

David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Scot Minesinger

Mika,

I did mention your alternative # 3 (did not think this is a good idea) and that is what is currently installed.  Your replacement compressor and tank (your option # 4) is good provided that shocks receive automatically controlled means by ride level so that compressed air is released or added from shocks as required to maintain the ride height.

I have a 1970 DVC that gets loaded with a 100lb floor jack in trunk, tools and etc. for long trips to GN and the back end does not sag with replacement springs installed in 2005.  That is why I am a fan of making it real simple and go with DeVille rear springs and shocks (your option # 2).  I converted a 1976 RWD Fleetwood to standard DeVille springs and shocks and the high up in CLC owner is very pleased.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Scott,
You mean we are in  an aristocracy here?
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Scot Minesinger

Greg,

You mean the "high up in CLC" remark?  If so just saying an elected person in our club who is particular about his Cadillac was happy once I fixed his rear suspension.  Generally an elected person is fairly passionate about the preservation of our cars.  He drove this three states over to have me work on it because there is no one around who will that he trusts.  If you lived in a more populated area, you could be busier if you wanted to be.

Before I got it the springs in rear of 1976 Fleetwood were not in their correct position (had to rotate both about 180 degrees).  This resulted in an unappealing not level stance.  The rear springs were DeVille springs recently replaced coupled with air shocks connected to the manual inflate system I don't like.  Rotated springs to correct position and replaced shocks, now car is a dream to drive, and it is level.

This car also suffered refrigeration issues and needed a carb rebuild.  Now it is good to go.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

TJ Hopland

Anyone have a look at more recent OE air ride compressors?   Some don't look like they take up much space and being that they come on higher end cars I would think they would not be that loud.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Highwayman68

I have read all of this thread and I am not sure so I am asking only so I will know. My 68 Fleetwood had ALC but it was removed and replaced with air shocks before I got the car in 1980. The car floats down the road better than any other car I have been in. Should I be concerned about the springs? Is it being said that if the ALC is changed out to Air Shocks that the springs should have been changed too?
1968 Fleetwood Purchased in 1981