ELectronic ignition, pros and cons 6volt positive ground.

[gary griffin]

Hoping for a lot of trouble free driving in the near future as my 1942 - 6719 is almost finished (For real this time).

I am considering electronic ignition and possibly later throttle body fuel injection.  I love authenticity and would never ruin the car but as a practical measure they have to be considered.

What is the best Electronic ignition for flat-heads?  Why?

Ditto for the fuel injection? Best? and Why? Can I conceal it in an old carburetor body??

[Steve Passmore]

I love authenticity and would never ruin the car but as a practical measure they have to be considered.

What is the best Electronic ignition for flat-heads?  Why?

Ditto for the fuel injection? Best? and Why? Can I conceal it in an old carburetor body??

That sounds like a contradiction Gary and I would have to ask WHY you feel that way??     I have 3 flatheads that have been running faultlessly, one for the past 6 years and I have never yet changed the plugs or points or messed with the carburetors.  Once set up right they go on for miles and points can be changed in 15 minutes anyway. If your electronic ignition or injection fails you will have to call the tow truck.    I thought that was why we love these cars because of their simplicity??

[Bob Schuman]

Gary,
I agree completely with Steve's comments. I can only add that my 41 ran troublfree for 50000 miles and 42 years with the stock ignition and fuel systems, until it was totaled last winter by a person who did not see the need to stop for a traffic light. My car had been converted to 12 volts, but I don't consider that to have made it any more reliable than the stock 6 volt system.
Bob Schuman

[Jay Friedman]

I agree with Steve and Bob.

A friend put fuel injection on a '49 he used to own which looked similar to a carburetor and mounted on the same place on the intake manifold as the carburetor.  It was very complicated with, if I remember, 3 different sensors on the exhaust pipe and motor, a computer under the dash and many wires connecting all these.  I think it needed 12 volts too.

Also, since his car was Hydra-matic, it needed a re-designed throttle plate so that the TV rod down to the transmission was at the correct angle and moved the correct distance when stepping on the gas pedal.  He was able to do this since he is a mechanical engineer. 

Yes, it started and ran slightly bit better than with a carburetor, but it was probably not worth the effort and expense. 

[Bill Ingler #7799]

Gary: I have to agree with all who posted. There isn`t a 6 volt flathead Cadillac out there that can`t be made to run and perform today as it did when it left the factory. What makes you think that with all the work you have done on your car that you will not get trouble free driving from your car? Drive your car and yes with any new restoration you will have some areas that need to be corrected but wait to see what needs further work before deciding to modify your 42.    Bill

[gary griffin]

Thanks for the input everyone. I am just frustrated as I am having a few problems getting my car going. I put in a second ground and 2/0 power cable to the starter and it still is very slow.  I have 3 distributors and they are all different, one had double points and one is so rusty it will take forever to get it in shape. The other one has a broken ear on the vacuum advance so it  is hanging on one screw.  I do  not trust the readily available points and condensers and I have a tight schedule issue. I guess I need to slow down and think things through. I do favor authenticity except dual master cylinders and seat belts.

[bcroe]

As others know, I am generally only happy when a car runs BETTER than
when it was new.  Yes dual master cylinders and seat belts are a must here
too.  Drum brakes are OK in good weather. 

But I am pretty much in agreement; fuel injection isn't a "fix", its a big
complication which could take a LOT of time and other resources to sort
out.  For fair weather driving, about all it does is reduce emissions. 

Most ignition systems will require getting your original equipment in good
order.  If you drive at moderate speeds in moderate weather, points systems
will get you quite a few miles.  That is NOT a description of how I drove my
6V and 12V points cars, and in both cases I worked up electronic ignitions. 
The 6V system STILL USED the points, but the life was extended indefinitely
by only having to drive a transistor amplifier. 

The only way I know to avoid restoring your original ignition, is go to a crank
trigger system with coil packs and electronically mapped advance.  I have
this on my tractor, but its probably not ideal for you and needs 12V. 

If your starter isn't doing the job, you can use your volt meter to trace
down a loss of battery energy.  Maybe an analog meter would be best. 
The assumption is that battery voltage isn't making it to the starter
motor.  First thing is put the probes directly on the battery posts and
have someone engage the starter.  A drastic voltage drop indicates
battery problems. 

With a stout battery, check loss in the wiring.  Put probe on the grounded
battery post and the other on the engine block, use a 1 to 3 V scale. 
When the starter is engaged, more than a few tenths of a volt means
this path needs some work.  Walk one of the probes down the path to
find the weak spot. 

Same thing on the hot side.  Put one probe on the battery hot post, the
other connect to the starter terminal bolt.  A solid clip on meter extension
is OK since the meter draws no real current.  If you aren't getting most
battery voltage delivered to the starter, work on the wiring. 

Good luck, Bruce Roe

[Jay Friedman]

I may have misunderstood, but it seems to me you could combine the good parts of your 3 distributors into one good one.  Do you have one good single point breaker plate and one good vacuum advance among the 3? 

I agree with bcroe that you may have a voltage drop somewhere in the starter.  Another suggestion is to ground the end plate and brushes of your starter to improve starting performance.  Art Gardner and I wrote a Self Starter article a few months ago on how to easily do it.  In fact, instead of grounding the end plate itself, as a 1st step try merely grounding one of the long bolts whose heads are visible on the end plate and which go right through the starter.

[Glen]

If you disassembled your starter and painted it, you probably painted the ends of the body where it contacts the end plates.  That broke the ground path for the brushes.  You can rewire the car putting the ground wire directly on the end plate or you can remove the paint where it contacts the body of the starter.  While the bolts that run through the starter will make a ground they do not have the cross section to carry the amps needed for the starter. 

[Jay Friedman]

Glen is right about the bolts that run through the starter being too thin.  If you take off the starter to remove any paint that might be on the surfaces of the motor and starter where they meet, you may as well install a new 3/8" diameter bolt on the end plate as per Art's and my article.  Such a bolt would be thick enough to carry the amps. 

The job is not difficult and can be done in less than an hour if you have all the materials at hand.  The only tricky part is getting the brushes on the end plate back around the commutator when you put the starter back together, but a bit of perseverance and maybe a few choice words will do the trick.

[gary griffin]

Thanks for the great advice and support.  I have been planning on driving it a lot locally to get the bugs sorted out before I attempt a 1100 mile drive to Las Vegas in April. My spouse is threatening to fly there and I have been telling her that the car will be fine.  Time to put my money (and my efforts) where my mouth is and find quality parts for my distributor  and do a thorough check on my starter circuits.   I have already ordered another starter and will have it rebuilt for a spare, and I am planning on doing the same for the distributor.  Any recommendations for parts and sources to accomplish this.  garygriffin@Q.com

[TJ Hopland]

I think it would force you to go 12v but something you could consider for ignition is something like a classic MSD 6 'box'.    Its an electronic capacitive dischage ignition box.   It will trigger of of stock points and condenser using factory settings so if the box died it could easily be bypassed.   When triggering off of points the points won't have any arching so wear will be physical vs erosion.   Any doubt on how hot the spark is just try working on one with the key on.   Seems to help starting and overall smoothness especially at idle.     

[bcroe]

I could probably re create my first 6V electronic ignition in the future; guess
a positive ground version is needed.  But first your standard system needs
to be in good order.  Bruce Roe

[dan48]

I've had a Pertronix ignition on my 48 flathead for a few years. It has worked flawlessly.

[Bill Ingler #7799]

Gary: If you are going to rebuild your distributor then you will need the following parts.  Delco  D-104P which are points. Always on ebay from $7-9.00. Delco 1869794 or NAPA RR 174 which is the condenser. Delco 1836893 which is the rotor. I think also available from NAPA but don`t have the NAPA number. Distributor cap is Delco 1837974 or Delco D-302. NAPA also carries the cap. Now the original vacuum advance was Delco 1116030 and is almost impossible to find. If you are fortunate to have a distributor with that number on the advance then Terrill Machine in TX was rebuilding vacuum advances. An alternative to the rebuild of the old vacuum advance is to buy a NOS Delco 1116036 which is a 41-48 Olds 8 vacuum advance. Take out the spring in the barrel of your old 1116030 vacuum advance and exchange it with the spring in the NOS Olds advance and put the Olds vacuum advance on your distributor. The Olds 1116036 vacuum advance often on EBAY for around $45
Over the past 35 years I have been on many CCCA CARavans where we would have 20-25 flat head Cadillac's on each tour. Probably the most changed part in the parking lot after a days run is the water pump and followed closely by the fuel pump. If possible Gary get a rebuilt spare water pump and fuel pump to carry in your car. I also carried with my 41 and 47 a spare distributor pre timed to the car so if I did have to change a distributor, I would just pull out the old and drop in the pre-timed one. If you ever need to change a set of points with the distributor still in the car as well as then time the car, you will appreciate being able to drop in another ready to go distributor. The trip you have planned sounds great and have fun with your car.  Bill

[gary griffin]

Thanks everyone. and  Bill as usual you went out of your way to help.

FYI everyone, I was able to find a rebuilt starter and serviceable distributor from Me Scott and I was able to find at least one of  everything on Bill's list except the vacuum advance. I am still looking for one more  distributor cap , one condenser-capacitor, and two vacuum advance units. It is difficult to know if a vacuum advance is serviceable I guess?

I have always had good luck with eBay both selling and buying.