Pertronix, One More Time

[76eldo]

OK, I have talked down Pertronix conversions in the past but I just watched an Episode of Wheeler Dealers and they took the points out of a stock 72 small block Vette which dyno-ed at 145 HP at the rear wheels.

They slapped in an electronic conversion, mentioning no brand names, and the same car pulled 195 HP with no other mods.

Is this possible?

Brian

[Bobby B]

Brian,
Maybe if the original distributor was pretty clapped out…Picking up 50 HP on a smog motor would seem pretty tough. The base 350 is rated @200 HP stock, and you know they rated them a little on the conservative side for insurance purposes. Had to be a dog to start with…..
                                                  Bobby

[MY 59]

Just my 2 cents

I found it hard to get a GOOD set of points, one out of the box had a fault with the spring and another (good brand...) was really badly aligned)
however saying that I did the full Pertronix 2 with coil swap, checked all voltages etc and it went fine for a little time and then went mad and locked certain cylinders on cranking over with advance and wouldn't start. really weird - anyway put the points back and ran OK

now I have a Crane system in, for over year now, kept the resistor wire etc, all original, and it is sweet

as I say just my 2 cents, but I have a LOT of experience over the years with cars and motors etc, my preference would have been to stay with points but could not get a good set, couple that with distributor cam lobe wear and the fact that my Crane system is still ticking away I am more than happy with my choice
if I can help with the kit # etc please let me know best of luck which ever way you go !

[TonyZappone #2624]

I installed Pertonix on my 1936 Pierce-Arrow this summer.  I have already had it on my '47 Cad and my '58 Cad.  When hot, the Pierce always turned over ok, (Optima 6 volt battery)  but didn't always fire as quickly as it should.  With the Pertonix, the engine starts, like right now!  Going down the street, when one hits the gas, the car almost jumps.  I am a true believer.  Install a new coil when you do this.

For unusual installations, like the Pierce, give the dealer the distributor make and number, and Pertonix can fabricate the specific unit.  $160 in this case, plus the price of a coil.

[Jason Edge]

I am a true believer.  Install a new coil when you do this.

Coming from a long term user of the Pertronix Ignitor II/III Electronic Ignition & Flamethrower II/III coil, I second that comment.  You can "feel" the performance gain over the traditional points setup.  I loved the fact you can stick it under the stock distributor cap, and get the coil in a stock looking black coil. If you want to keep it looking factory under the hood, and tweak some ignition performance, this is a good option.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

I definitely noticed a difference. However I was also able to advance the timing a bit. I just did the Petronix 1.
Jeff

[Scot Minesinger]

I converted my 1970 Cadillac over to Pertronix, and do not notice the difference whatsoever.  I think Bobby got it right, the points were in bad shape and the Pertronix played the same role as a replacement set of points and condenser. 

I did it because want reliability and good sets of points and condenser are not easy to find.  I stuck the good set of points and condenser in glove box, case they are ever needed.  Understood that points and condenser are reliable, but the electronic ignition has been in use now for 40 years with such great success no one ever talks about going back-on one says they don't make ignition systems like they used to.

It does seem a little bit irresponsible of the show to make such a statement.  Ed should know better.  If electronic ignition really made such an improvement, not one person on this forum would have points and condenser set ups anymore.

[savemy67]

Hello Brian (and all),

Going from 145 horsepower to 195 horsepower is a gain of 50 horsepower, or a gain of about 34 percent - a one-third increase in horsepower by changing the spark reliability, duration, and intensity.  All else being equal, this is not possible.  Typical of many shows, including those on The Discovery Channel on which Wheeler Dealers airs, viewers do not get the whole story.

As Bobby B mentioned, the car would have had to have been in bad shape, i.e the distributor/points/coil etc. would have been malfunctioning.  The real test would have been to refresh the original distributor/points/coil etc., then dyno the car, then swap out the parts and dyno the car again.  Ultimately, horsepower is a function of the combustion of air and fuel within a cylinder.  At 145 horsepower, the Corvette was not getting the horsepower bang for the gasoline buck.  A good tune up with breaker points, etc. would have improved this situation.

I am not knocking (no pun intended) electronic ignition systems.  They have been around for decades and have proven to be a good evolution of the breaker pointy systems.  But, for the producers of the show to imply that a one-third horsepower gain can be had by simply swapping in an electronic ignition system, is disingenuous.  But such is the nature of television - which is why I do not own one.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter

[Caddyholic]

Brian

Was it a 255hp 350 0r 200hp. Probably the 255 net rated at the fly wheel. That should put down about 195 on the pavement. It was way out of tune for the base pull.

Has anyone on here ever dynoed there Cadillac? My 61 390 rated at 325 gross puts down 190 at the wheels (with pertronix). I should put the points back in and give it another pull.

[Bobby B]

Points vs. Electronic Igniton…. Simply explained to me by a well known distributor refurbisher of British (Lucas) distributors years ago. I worked heavily on early Jag's, Triumph's, and MG"s, and I'm sure some others on this forum have had their hand in a British car at one time or another in their life. Needless to say, Lucas distributors are notorious for the bushings, shafts, etc. to be so worn out, that you can't imagine the car would even run. This guy could take a stock E-type distributor (in decent running condition), completely rebuild it, and do what the factory did not do, which was to re-curve it to run in the modern world, taking your engine specs ( cam, compression, etc) into consideration. He knew the sweet spot of the engine, and had the knowledge and equipment to do it. When you got a distributor back from him, you couldn't even believe it was the same car. He would also ask if you wanted a Petronix conversion while he was in there, because he would do it just for the price of the kit. What's the advantage? According to his knowledge, experience, data, and equipment…ZERO! It's strictly for convenience. No points to change, maybe a little smoother idle, etc, that's it. He told me that on the machine, points will outperform electronic ignition on early car that came with  factory points hands down, with data to support it.
  Now….I also run Pertronix in 3 of my cars and can honestly say that I have had no problems, and am very happy with my choice. A few of the other cars have stock ignitions and are kept in top shape, and also run flawlessly. Point being, I think that taking the leap over to Pertronix most likely happens because wear and tear over the course of time has lead up to problems, causing the car to run poorly. At that point, waking the car up with a fresh conversion to an Electronic ignition, makes it feel like a brand new car, leaving you wondering why you never did this years ago.  You get the same feeling after you wash your car after X amount of time. It just feels like it runs better. Maybe Psychological?   
                             Bobby

[TonyZappone #2624]

Not at all psychological.  Over the last 50 years, the things that have left me on the road hitchhiking have been closed up points, burned up points. etc.  I am not a wrench.  With points out of the picture, it is just one less thing I have to worry about driving an old car.

[76eldo]

I purchased about a dozen sets of NOS Delco points and condensers a while ago and I think they are the same for many years so I think I have access to quality points and condensers.

On the show, Mike drove this 72 Vette and bought it and thought it was lacking some power.  He took it to a shop that dyno'd the car on a "rolling road" as he called it and it pulled 145 HP at the rear wheels.  With no other changes other than changing to electronic ignition, it pulled 195 HP.

This was the "Wheeler Dealers Trading Up" series without Edd China turning the wrenches.

It seemed like a 50 HP gain was too good to be true.

Brian

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

I had 3 condensers go bad in a short period. I just feel better with the Petronix.
Jeff

[TJ Hopland]

Maybe they post production folks cut out the part where Edd said "our car's ignition system does not appear to be in good nick".   

Overall I really like that show.   I'm glad they are back in the UK.  The season they were in the USA was not as interesting because they for the most part were working on the same cars as every other car show works on.    The UK version I saw a lot of cars I never even heard of and in most cases Edd got pretty deep into them so we got to see some of what made them unique.

[Chuck Swanson]

Not at all psychological.  Over the last 50 years, the things that have left me on the road hitchhiking have been closed up points, burned up points. etc.  I am not a wrench.  With points out of the picture, it is just one less thing I have to worry about driving an old car.

Agree.  I happen to use Lectric Limited Breakerless SE vs Pertronix.  The Breakerless SE has no extra wire, vs the Pertronix which requires an extra wire sticking out of distributor, so obviously not 100% original looking, but besides this minor diff, same concept, similar price.  Have used both, but like the SE total stealth   I also have a spare one I throw in the car that may be on a long trip/show, but have not had to use the spare in 10 years of using these.

[cadillacman]

For what is worth, I also fitted a Pertronix kit and coil, my 49 is also running on a Optima 6 volt battery too, as my car was hard to start when warm (always leaving a car show).

I would have to agree with TonyZappone my Cadillac it instantly felt quicker and pick up was noticeable better. I also run on super unleaded.

I've never looked back..

[Bobby B]

Everybody is comparing a worn out system to a "New" system. Regardless, a finely tuned car running on points will actually perform better than an aftermarket ignition. The advantages are obvious, being instant gratification, and low/no maintenance. I never stated that the quality of points were good or bad nowadays, condensers are made in who knows what country, etc. But, back when quality parts were made, there was nothing wrong with the way a points distributor performed in a stock car. Distributor machine doesn't lie. As stated, I'm also running Petronix in a few cars out of convenience and the above stated consensus of today's aftermarket parts. The Psychological reference was a joke in case we didn't get it….
                                                     Bobby

[Jason Edge]

My two experiences with installing Pertronix were on my 1964 Coupe DeVille which already had new points, rebuilt distributor, hi performance plug wires, fresh spark plugs, engine timing set, dwell set between 28 and 32 degrees per spec, and nothing tired in the ignition system.  As a side topic, I have found in my 20 years dealing with many 64 Cadillacs that worn out distributors with busted/leaking vacuum advances and weak/worn centrifugal weights, and just wore out in general, is one of the main culprits of subpar ignition performance, yet it is often overlooked and not addressed. I don't know how many dozens of people I have run across that say they cannot time their car to factory spec, and have to set advance way out there to get it to idle ... and of course to  the detriment of performance on the other end of the rpm curve.

Anyway, when I installed the Pertronix II I could tell the difference the hotter spark made off the line, with lower octane gas, and "punch it" get up and go power. It was not like night and day but it was a real difference. With the hotter spark I adjusted the gap out to about 40/1000 and noticed a tad bit more power.  I am not sure about the rest of you, but the first 5 or so years I had the stock setup I kept my points and timing right and was probably changing points out once a year just to make sure I was optimizing ignition performance. I have since installed the II then the III setup and both worked flawlessly. I have seen some get in a hurry and not read instructions, and try to run off the resistor wire, or wire incorrectly, but if you just take your time and step through the instructions,  it is pretty straight forward.

[66 Eldo]

I too like the Pertronix for the all-stock look, however I have heard of more than a few failing. However, I have one in my 78 Bentley which replaced the old Lucas electronic ignition. No problems here.

Two of my friends that own classic car repair shops prefer the Crane Fireball electronic ignition. It has a box  which is a visual drawback if you can't hide it. A plus is its an optical trigger not magnetic like the Pertronix and more accurate.

Doubt we could notice the difference between the two brands in our cars. 

[Maynard Krebs]

/quote]

Holy Cow----I thought that I was the only one who didn't have a TV set in their house!   It's been 30 years this month for me.   : )