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66 coupe bought at barrett now on ebay super RARE radio delete!! more BS

Started by wrefakis, February 11, 2016, 10:35:33 AM

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cadillac ken

to add... the market price is set by the buyers not the sellers.

most sellers don't seem to get the concept of the buyers set the market price, not sellers.  I can't tell you how many times I have actually had irate sellers launch into a tirade when I tell them my offer or that, at their asking price, I'm not interested.  This is usually on cars that have been listed for literally 5 to 8 months at the same price with no takers.

Scot Minesinger

Eric and Ken,

Very true. 

As a frequent seller of cars, maybe two a year (never taking more than a month to sell them), I have no problem if people offer less, far less.  The only issue is if they drive over to discuss it with me early on (for sale only a few days) and waste my time.  If I had a car listed for two months and did not sell, any offer would be considered.

Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Unless a transaction occurs - meaning both buyer and seller come to agreement - a market price cannot be established.

It is not correct to say that either side establishes market value.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

wrefakis

again there is no RADIO DELETE a radio was an OPTION

years ago I had a 68 coupe deville with blackwall tires from the factory
RARE
DELETE
BIG BIG $$$
no ,the old guy that bought it new pointed out that he thought the black walls looked better and would not show curb scuffs

the last time restored 59 eldo,s were under 70$ was in 1998 hell they sold a few decent ones at barrett under 50 as late as 2001

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#24
I suppose whether the radio (and heater, for that matter) was standard is a matter of semantics.

Radio was part of Basic Group A. To my knowledge, the factory would never produce a car without at least including Basic A - unless specifically ordered.

That makes sense as I would think if the factory started shipping new Cadillacs without radios & heaters for dealer stock, their dealer contact lines would soon be ringing off the hook.

But yes, it is true that neither Basic A (nor radio) was included in base MSRP.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#25
In 1987 a local Cadillac dealer sold an all original 70K mile '59 Biarritz for $3,000 that a buddy looked at back in 1978 at which time he only wanted $2,000. (He had traded the car in on a new '72 Cadillac and for some reason stashed it away in his barn at the family homestead.)

The Cadillac dealer told me it was the biggest single mistake he'd ever made. 
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Joe Konarowski

 They make radio delete plate reproductions for other popular cars  now of the 60s & 70s so the desirable ones are no longer rare. This is what is killing the hobby what is real anymore. You can buy everything from the knock off 1968 Camaro body to the radio delete plate. Come to think of it my 30 Cadillac does not have a radio so is it rare and more desirable. I think not.

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

I wish my Accord had the 6 cylinder engine...... However it has the 2 cylinder delete option.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

blugg


Scarce?   better word then Rare?   who determines what is "rare"?

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Eric,
Remember when people were paying double list prices for 76 Eldo convertibles, arranging air conditioned long term storage with the idea they were going to retire on the profits.  IMHO automobiles of ALL sorts are made to be driven and  enjoyed for their intrinsic properties (such as performance, comfort, handling etc.).  Just like any commodity such as Pork Bellies, there will be speculators trying to make money on them, but (again) IMHO that has a very disrespectful place in an organization like the Cadillac LaSalle Club.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

cadillac ken


"It is not correct to say that either side establishes market value."Unless a transaction occurs - meaning both buyer and seller come to agreement - a market price cannot be established.

It is not correct to say that either side establishes market value."

Maybe by the textbook definition, but in the real world of cars i couldn't disagree more. 

If you want Starry Starry Night it's truly one of a kind.  There is only one.  Each time that one particular painting changes hands there is a price that reflects the value one person put on that one piece.  There are no other examples to compare.

With 1320 1959 Biarritz's produced, there are a wide range of conditions and therefore "values" that have to be determined.  One sale cannot set the market. And in fact, I believe this misconception is what is driving the hobby in the wrong direction. 

Once any particular model sells for a huge price on TV the viewers at home all believe the price of their car (same model and year) has just been also elevated to the stratosphere. Knowledgable folks in this hobby all know that condition is everything and that sale for big bucks they just witnessed is in fact one sale.

Several years back I was at a Barrett Jackson Auction where a 1941 Dodge Powerwagon crossed the stage.  It sold for 44,000 dollars as two bidders engaged in the all too familiar "my wallet is bigger than your wallet" bidding.  I have never seen another example even come within 20 thousand dollars of that sale price.  Not even close.

So does one sale of an item in which both the buyer and the seller have agreed to price become the "market value"?
If a beautiful original example of (to pick a model and year) 1958 Cadillac convertible is purchased by some strange fate of luck from an unknowing seller for $2500 mean now the market for those cars has just dipped to historic lows?

The media has got the average folks overestimating the pool of buyers with unlimited or almost unlimited funds. 

These sellers constantly find themselves disappointed when there are no takers for their cars at the price they envision.

Big Apple Caddy

Quote from: blugg on February 14, 2016, 11:46:30 AM
Scarce?   better word then Rare?   who determines what is "rare"?

Scarce is more about there not being enough of something to meet existing needs or demand.  That is different than rare which is more about how many of something exists relative to the total, regardless of demand.

Big Apple Caddy

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on February 14, 2016, 12:02:51 PM
Remember when people were paying double list prices for 76 Eldo convertibles, arranging air conditioned long term storage with the idea they were going to retire on the profits.

I wonder what the value of 1976 Eldorado convertibles would be today if there truly were no more domestic convertibles made after 1976.

55 cadi

I agree with Cadillac Ken.

And another example of inflated pricing is the housing market, if a neighbor sells there house for X amount people assume there's is that amount, yes it does give existing neighbors some sort of increase or decrease, not all homes are done the same, or have the same design inside, (pool, no pool)
And because of this maybe some of that mentality follows over into there cars. They see same car sell for X amount so they think there's is worth the same, but that's not correct.
I say this because I have seen an acquaintance think like this, he had a old corvette and had the same idea on his house when neighbor sold there's and he saw a corvette like his sell for a lot so he thought his was worth that, I looked it up and saw it was a survivor vette low number, not comparable to his.
1955 Cadillac sedan series 62
1966 mustang convertible w/pony PAC, now in Sweden
2005 Cadillac deville

Big Apple Caddy

Quote from: cadillac ken on February 14, 2016, 12:14:20 PM
One sale cannot set the market. And in fact, I believe this misconception is what is driving the hobby in the wrong direction.

I don't think most buyers view one sale or one auction as necessarily setting the entire market.  There are always going to be outliers.  It can be difficult to assess a market price when so few of an item have been sold or when that item has "unique" features or history.  This is a reason why there can be such price fluctuations.

Regardless of what sellers ask, the market won't be able to support certain prices if there isn't demand (buyers) to pay those prices.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#35
Nobody said that simply because a single instance of an a very high price paid defines the market at as a whole. It simply means that a given car was worth x on a given day at a given venue.

As with any quantitative analysis, all values must be taken into account (within a certain time frame) in order to arrive at a reasonably reliable market valuation.

Equally worth noting is that used cars are like snowflakes - no two are exactly the same and it is often for the finest and most documented, most painstakingly restored and/or finest originals to command two, three and in some cases, several times the value of more ordinary examples.

In such cases, duplication of a car with these attributes is near impossible putting them in an entirely different league on the value scale. This is not an exact science and no value(s) can be said to be etched in granite.

Personally I have no problem with anyone investing their money in any way they see fit. This is a free society after all. And just as certain as those buying up new cars for investment purposes, many of those have taken serious losses, if it's any consolation. In fact, instances of "new-car-as-investment" becoming lucrative to any notable degree are very few and far between indeed. And aside of the brief surge of new '76 Eldorado convertibles, I don't think it ever applied to any other new Cadillac.

I doubt hardly any new '76 Eldorado Convertible buyers ever made a dime on their cars; it was primarily Cadillac dealers who benefited from that brief spike. The vast majority of private owners held on for decades. A $13,000 investment in the S & P 500 from 1976 - 2016 would be worth at least $500,000 today. And that doesn't even take into account garaging, maintenance, insurance which could easily push that figure to nearly $1M.  Instead the "investor" has, at utmost maximum, a $50,000 '76 Eldorado - on a good day. And that amount wouldn't even cover inflationary loss alone.

Cheers.

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

cadillac ken



cadillac ken

Tibor: again, asking prices.  It would be interesting in todays digital age if there is a legitimate website that shows actual selling prices of our classic cars as well as the original ad and description.  Now that would be considerably more helpful to establish "market value". 

Did I just give out a new multi-million dollar app?

As a subscriber to Hemming Motor news, I am very interested in the Auction results they print in the front of the book each month where they show a photo of the car, the reserve price and the selling price.  And while I still believe "auction sales" are not representative of market value, it is helpful.

Blade

Ken: here is a chart and summary for actual values for cars sold on auctions, make sure to scroll down a little to see a break down by body styles and other various categories:

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/default.aspx?carID=1635&i=8