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1935 LaSALLE - rear axle issue ?

Started by 47bigcadillac, February 29, 2016, 10:11:18 AM

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47bigcadillac

Took my 1935 laSALLE out after 3 months of storage, drove 2 miles without problems or strange noises, then stopped at a traffic light.

When the light turns green, the rear wheels won't turn - the rear seems locked and engine stalls when applying power.

I though that the Parking brake spring got stuck but both wheels react the same and parking cable is loose and seem to operate fine.

Had the car towed and put it up on stands, the rear wheels do turn only very heavily - both wheels behave exactly the same - but the pinion shaft does not move - as it was locked from the inside.
No noise and no play in the pinion shaft.

Tried applying power to the rear wheels while on stand but the engine stalls right away as the rear is stuck.

I opened the wheel cylinder drain plug to let some fluid out if pressure built up but no changes. The master cylinder is fairly new so are the hoses.

The rear axle oil has been changed 2 years ago with the proper oil and level and there are zero leaks from the differential case or seals so its not a lubrication issue...

The issue seem to come from the rear axle but what can cause it to lock up at the pinion ? Is this even conceivable ?

I am a bit lost here..any ideas welcome

Thank you
Rob
R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

TMoore - NTCLC

I think I would go ahead and pull the rear drums and see what you have - my first guess would be that a piece of brake hardware has dislodged and is binding inside of the drum, causing too much resistance, or perhaps an axle bearing has failed and is causing the axle to lock up - either way, you should be able to identify it with the drums off.  I would think that if it was a failure in the rear-end, there would have been some very noticeable noises that would have been detected prior to failure.

Jay Friedman

Another possibility is that the problem is in the transmission.  I'm not familiar with the 35 Lasalle transmission, but the 38 and later column-shift Cadillac/Lasalle manual transmission can be quirky when a bit worn and get jammed up by being in 2 gears at once.  Sounds weird but that is what happens when there are certain problems in the shift levers.  When this happens the transmission totally locks up at both ends.  The driver instantly knows it as the motor will stall or start to stall as the clutch pedal is released because nothing to the rear of the motor can turn. 

On the column-shift transmission, you can reach under the car and manually move one or both shift levers on the side of the transmission back into neutral according to the nature of the problem.  I don't know what the cure is on a '35 floor-shift transmission, but if this is the problem you may have to remove the cover (I don't know if it's on the top or bottom) and manually manipulate the gears and the shift lever back into neutral.

Good luck.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

Classic

Suggest you jack up both rear wheels.  Make sure the brakes are released and try rotating one rear wheel.  If the other wheel rotates in the opposite direction, I think your rear axle/brakes are probably OK.
Gene Menne
CLC #474

Steve Passmore

Rob, its not unusual to see both wheels turn without turning the drive shaft, that's the differential working and if the trans was locked up you would feel all the resistance of the diff at the back wheels.
  With the car jacked off the ground I would disconnect the rear drive shaft UJ joint then see what turns. This will tell you if the trouble is in the axle or the transmission.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

47bigcadillac

#5
Hi everyone - thanks a lot for all your replies

I believe the transmission is fine as I had no issue running the engine on neutral.

I unbolted the rear drive-shaft and got no improvements  to the rear wheel dragging force so it must be in the rear.

Both rear wheels heavily drag the same way but turning one wheel a bit makes the other one rotate in the opposite way.

I find it very odd why it would suddenly happen to both rear wheels the exact same way. The drag is exactly the same on both wheels.

Don't see how both shoes springs would fail at the same time but again maybe one was already broken without me noticing it and then when the other one failed later on and this became too much drag for that poor low power engine..

Next step is to remove the rear drums  this week-end,
this involves using a puller so hopefully I can get the drum out without too much effort to see what's happening inside.

Rob
R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

jackworstell

We had something somewhat along these lines happen to a 1937 Cadillac recently.   There is so much drag on the rear LH side wheel that you can barely turn it by hand       ( both wheels jacked up off the ground and the car in neutral )     The RH side wheel is also hard to turn but not as bad as the LH side.

When we pulled the rear LH side brake drum   ( we haven't pulled the RH side yet )     it was evident that the outside edge of the brake shoe was rubbing against the inside of the drum.    It was as if the shoes were too wide....but we measured them and they were 2" wide  just as the manual specs called for. 
  The brake springs and hardware looked to be just as they should be.

We thought that maybe the outer bearing had slipped on the axle letting the axle shift inboard toward the differential maybe a quarter of an inch....but we see no visual evidence of this plus the bearing seems to be installed up against a shoulder in the shaft and this fixes the position of the bearing on the shaft.

WE are scratching our heads.      Tomorrow we will be trying again to figure this one out.

Jack Worstell   CLC #7558

Steve Passmore

That's an odd one Jack. If the bearing had moved it would automatically have been pulled back into position by the taper on the shaft when the nut was tightened.
I don't suppose its a back-plate issue? where someone back in the day had attempted to pull the drums off with a legged puller and pulled the back-plate out of shape?
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

jackworstell

Steve....tomorrow we will check out the back plate more closely.

I did notice that there are a series of raised "humps" embossed into the plate  ( and these were no doubt done at the factory )
The the inboard edge of the shoes rest on these raised spots.     If there were no raised spots the shoes would ride inboard a little and then the outer edges would not rub against the inner surface of the drum.       But the raised spots are no doubt factory.

I checked the plate off of a 1941 small series and there were raised spots ( factory).   Some plates I have off a 1942 series 75 do not have raised spots.   Of course all of this doesn't tell me much....except I wonder if the wrong backing plate was installed somewhere along the way.....for whatever reason I can't imagine......

We don't have a lot of history on the car,     And we haven't tried to drive it very much....too busy checking things out   rebuilding components etc.     But still it's apparent that no one has " fooled around" with the car very much...it is remarkably well preserved.   We even have the original WellS Gardner 5X radio working ( with the original under-running  board antenna )      and we have the original Borg clock working.      But in it's 80 years it has seen some alterations....    eg  the two component regulator has been switched out for a three component regulator.....even though the three brush generator is still there.    Also even though it still has the positive crankcase ventilation system,   someone has switched out the block and put in a 1938 short block

But I'm with you....the backing plate is the prime suspect.    Tomorrow we will be examining it closely.

Jack Worstell   CLC  #7558

Jay Friedman

I think by "humps" you are referring to what I call the "pads" which the inboard side of the brake shoes rest against.  The shoes move back and forth on these pads/humps, so it's a good idea to spread a thin film of lithium grease on each pad.  This, of course, helps the shoes to move freely against the drums for braking and to retract quickly.
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

47bigcadillac

#10
I Removed both rear drums today- came off without issues.

Inside is much better than I thought, no issues with springs and everything is clean and normal with no rust or leaks.

With both drums off, I tried to apply power to the rear but the pinion is locked solid and no gear seem to work to make it rotate even the slightest.

With rear shaft unbolted and both drums off, the pinion does not rotate at all by hand.No play either or sound.

Both wheel axle shaft do rotate fine by hand.

Maybe a piece of metal broke off inside the differential and got stuck between the gears, locking the drive pinion or another set of gear.

Which is why it could have happened so suddenly perhaps.

Next step is to unbolt the drive pinion cover assembly and take it out from under the car.

Do I need to remove the wheel axles for this to come out ? The shop manual says so but that's for the whole gear removal, I just plan on getting the drive pinion out for now..

Is the rear axle the same as the 1935 L8 Oldsmobile ?






R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

Steve Passmore

You cannot draw just the pinion Rob, they are assembled through the unit from the inside. You will have to remove the back plates and pull both shafts then remove the whole differential unit. Be warned though before you start dismantling the differential unit itself these have a special process to set them back up and Cadillac gives no specification regarding these as they tell owners to replace the whole unit.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

47bigcadillac

#12
Does removing all these bolts around the drive pinion case (red arrow) allow the drive pinion assembly to be pulled out ?

R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

47bigcadillac

here is the actual car - 1935 LaSALLE
R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

Steve Passmore

That is one magnificent car.
Once you have the axle shafts pulled out, all those nuts hold the entire differential unit (the Pig) to the 'Banjo' (Axle body)The pinion is just part of the whole.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Steve Passmore

If you get stuck for an Diff there's a rough, incomplete 36 LaSalle on ebay at the moment for very little money. Worth it if it only has a rear axle?
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

47bigcadillac

Quote from: Steve Passmore on March 05, 2016, 10:04:15 AM
That is one magnificent car.
Once you have the axle shafts pulled out, all those nuts hold the entire differential unit (the Pig) to the 'Banjo' (Axle body)The pinion is just part of the whole.

ok thanks ! I understand now - will get those wheel axles off and pull the whole diff unit out that's the only way to find out.
I was thinking of removing the back cover to see what can be the issue but I guess that I won't be able to view the pinion gear from there.
R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

Steve Passmore

Quote from: 47bigcadillac on March 05, 2016, 10:52:07 AM

I was thinking of removing the back cover to see what can be the issue but I guess that I won't be able to view the pinion gear from there.

If you have the correct rear axle Rob there is no back cover. It would make things so much easier to check for problems if there were.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

47bigcadillac

#18
Took the differential out today - the issue is as I thought, a piece of metal was stuck between the pinion and ring gear.

I loosened the side bearing adjusting nuts and was able to remove the piece.

The metal piece is about half a tooth of the pinion gear which came off from the wider portion of the conical gear.

The retaining nuts on the differential had no marks at all all, and also judging from the gasket it seems like the differential was never overhauled or checked in 80 years.

This car is a high mileage vehicle, the engine was changed to a 1936 LaSALLE - based on engine number - at some point.

I think that the side roller bearing did wear over the years and there was too much side play at the ring gear backlash which allowed a corner of the ring gear to hit the pinion gear and smash one tooth.

I did put the ring gear back to place and it seem to rotate fine by hand, no other damages than half a pinion tooth lost - I wonder if I can drive with this.

My other option is to try finding a similar differential in good condition or even just a pinion gear that would fit..but those are very rare most cars switched to hypoid gears just a few year later.




R. Brandys

1932 355B  5 pass Coupe,  Fleetwood          
1935 LaSalle Coupe  5077
1947 Club Coupe      6207

Steve Passmore

If you can set up the backlash to what it should be us ally about 6 thousandth of an inch you might get away with it. Only driving it will tell.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe