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58 Sedan Deville with later model Carter AFB

Started by 58seddev, March 13, 2016, 05:32:18 PM

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58seddev

Hello all,

I recently acquired my late grandfather's '58 Sedan DeVille and have started the process of getting it road worthy. After swapping plugs, wires, and installing a new fuel pump and filter it starts right up. Unfortunately, it doesn't want to do much more than idle. The fuel filter and pump were trashed from old gas, so I'm thinking that the next step is to rebuild the carb (last time the car was on the road was probably more than 15 years ago). From a little research, it appears that the carb on the car at the moment is for a mid-'60s Cadillac with a 429 (DGB-3903s). As far as I know, the motor is the original 365.

My question concerns rebuilding the carburetor. Do I need to order different jets to accommodate the 365?  If so, any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any sage advice you might be able to offer!

Bobby B

Robert,
  Hi..I think the correct carb for your car would be a  Carter 2696S. What number is on the tag now?  I think some of the Rochester's crossed over up to '63-'64. Maybe try and look for an original rebuildable one for the car. My advice would be to send it out and have it rebuilt by an person experienced in AFB's. They are a little finicky. It will eliminate one less problem that you're dealing with. By the time you buy the full rebuild kit, you're half way there cost wise. I used to do all my carbs, and found out that it's just not worth my time. They set it up so it's ready to go. You usually don't even have to touch it. Just my 2 cents…..
                                                           Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

savemy67

Hello Robert,

Have you ascertained the condition of the fuel lines (tank to pump, pump to filter/carb), and the fuel tank?

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Walter Youshock

Bobby is right.  This era of carbs had a very weird choke unloader system.  It linked the primary butterflies with the choke.  It also worked off vacuum and heat supplied by the primary exhaust on the passenger side.  These carbs were weird but the lesser of two evils was the Carter.  Post some pictures.  Easier to tell if the carb is right for the car.
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

wearymicrobe

If it is that old do the points, condenser, and if the coil is oil filled replace that as well.

Jon S

When I worked for a United Delco distributor back in the mid-late 1960's, Carter listed one carburetor as a replacement for 1958 - 1966.  I don't believe the jets were any different or significant enough to make a difference.  The only physical differences I noted back then were the design of the Climatic Control for the choke, but the fitting location was the same.  Even the rebuilding kits today cover a multi-year span as the units are virtually identical.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

fishnjim

Jet size is the least of your worries.  They usually sit for a reason, like didn't run good.   What's it do?   Stall out when you try to accelerate, accels but just doesn't get up to speed, or runs but never accelerates and then dies?   I assume you've sorted timing, compression, vacuum, electrical/ignition system, and have good clean fuel pressure.   There's a throttle control vacuum fast idle pot on them, too.   It 'gives it the gas" when it goes low at idle.   They can leak, linkage needs adjusted/changed when you change carbs.
It's not uncommon for the carbs to be full of "stuff" after this many years.   At least flush the tank, and if it's steel, take filler pipe off at the sleeve and inspect for rust, tank may need replaced and fuel line or you'll be back to square one in no time.   You can take the fuel line off at the carb and look inside or pull the top and inspect for pluggage.   There's probably one of more screens in the feed sides that are plugged off, but the accel pump seat and other gaskets etc. are probably toast.  You'll need ethanol proof ones anyway.   If you don't have all the stuff to rebuild yourself, like a 2 gallons of carb cleaner, clean place to work, know how, etc. you're not going to save much on rebuild cost and it's a non-original carb anyway.   I'd buy a brand new edelbrock or something new unless your really a purist.     
If the motor isn't really up to snuff, you'll have problems getting those old style 4bbls to work.   They idle on vacuum, have a fast idle kick down cam, so don't have an idle screw.   Drive U nuts.   I futsed with mine for a year.   Ran great at speed, but never would idle worth a darn.   Motor and trans are just back and I've gone 3x2.   Ran on the dyno so I know it's sound but not pocket change.

58seddev

Thanks to all. Your comments and insights are appreciated. I am reminded that like every good project, it takes more effort, involves more time, and has a nature of unpredictability. This is probably why people like us tackle these things, are willing to bust up our knuckles, just in the hopes of eventually get to go for that long awaited cruise...

Based on an external visual inspection, the fuel lines look good. I hope to pull the carb this week. That will give me a chance to get a better look at the inside of the fuel lines at the carb. I dropped the tank a few years ago for my grandfather and cleaned out the old gas. The tank looked pretty good at the time, though had been coated at some point in the past. I filled it to the top with gas and stabilizer, so I am guessing the fuel needs to go, but hopefully this served to protect the tank from any corrosion. Perhaps a new tank is the way to go. We'll see.

As far as I know, the car was parked because of brake issue. I've adjusted all of the drums and bled this system with the help of my uncle. Good news is, the car now stops. The next challenge is to isolate what toll time has taken on the rest of what's under the hood. A few months ago it wouldn't even start, so progress is slowly being made. 

For now, with a few pumps of the gas pedal it starts right up. It seems that the car would idle indefinitely (minus the oil leak at the valve covers), and is fairly quiet and smooth running. It will tach up in neutral, but stalls if I place it in drive and try to use the gas pedal more than a fraction of an inch. As for the carb, I ordered a rebuild kit yesterday and made a connection with a local, reputable mechanic who is experienced with Carters. The carb I have may be a later model based on the number stamped on it (3903s), but the rebuild kits appear to work for both this model and the one I found buried in the parts boxes (2815s).  I discovered the latter has some damage to the underside of it, hence why it's not on the car. It appears to have been dropped. Once I get the rebuilt one back and get it bolted back up we'll see what's next. The rebuild kit lists both carb models for its intended application. Thanks, Jon, for the tip on this one.

I'm adding the other suggestions (coil and condenser to my list). Thank you! I have a new set of points sitting on the shelf. Vacuum lines are on my list as well. From the looks of things, there are vacuum lines running everywhere. I'm aware of how to find leaks, just curious if there are any good suggestions for making sure everything is connected that is supposed to be. If anyone has any suggestions for a good resource on this, it would helpful. Based on what the lines look like, I think it makes more sense to go ahead and replace them all at once.

Venturing further off topic a bit here, sorry. But one more question--if anyone knows where I can find a hood emblem and "Cadillac" lettering for the fins, please let me know. Looking for driver quality items to replace ones that someone snatched from the car at some point.

Thanks to all,
Bob

willits

Quote from: 58seddev on March 15, 2016, 09:16:39 AMVacuum lines are on my list as well. From the looks of things, there are vacuum lines running everywhere. I'm aware of how to find leaks, just curious if there are any good suggestions for making sure everything is connected that is supposed to be

Bob,
At least for non A/C cars the vacuum lines are pretty simple.  Half the lines are for the wipers and the windshield squirters. 
•   There is a line from the left passenger side front of the carburetor to the distributor vacuum advance, (the original was metal)
•   There is a line from the rear of the carburetor to the master cylinder through a check valve
•   There is a line from a “T” at the master cylinder to the vacuum storage tank in the driver’s side front fender.
•   There is a line from the a “T” in the line from the manifold to the vacuum wiper distributor block to the throttle dash pot on the firewall
•   There is a line from the front of the manifold to the vacuum wiper distributor block, (on mine this is a metal tube with a rubber connection at the firewall)
•   There is a line from the vacuum pump to the vacuum wiper distributor block
•   There is a line from the vacuum wiper distributor block to the vacuum wipers
•   There is a line from the vacuum wiper distributor block to the windshield squirter jar
•   There is a line from the windshield squirter jar to the vacuum wiper motor.
•   There are 2 more lines from the jar to the spray nozzles

I can post some pictures of mine if it would help. 
Peter





Peter Willits
1958 Coupe DeVille http://bit.ly/1O6BGVu
1961 62 Convertible http://bit.ly/1O6BHst
2008 STS-V http://bit.ly/1O6CI3P

Joe G 12138

Carter DID make a kit for retrofitting a Carter AFB to replace Rochesters specifically on '57 thru '62 Cadillacs. Kit number AFB-6440. It used a 3903S, which was the "Official" numbered carb for 1965 Cadillacs. I have one on the shelf. It includes a '57-58 style Choke heat tube as well as a '59-62 style, a throttle lever adapter, the shim and other stuff.  Your 3903S should work fine on a '57, according to the Carter Kit info.  Setup instructions are pretty much standard AFB shop manual procedure; no mention made on changing jets for different years or 365 vs. 390.  My instruction sheet is dated May 1972.        Joe Gibeault

Jon S

Quote from: Joe G 12138 on March 16, 2016, 05:05:03 PM
Carter DID make a kit for retrofitting a Carter AFB to replace Rochesters specifically on '57 thru '62 Cadillacs. Kit number AFB-6440. It used a 3903S, which was the "Official" numbered carb for 1965 Cadillacs. I have one on the shelf. It includes a '57-58 style Choke heat tube as well as a '59-62 style, a throttle lever adapter, the shim and other stuff.  Your 3903S should work fine on a '57, according to the Carter Kit info.  Setup instructions are pretty much standard AFB shop manual procedure; no mention made on changing jets for different years or 365 vs. 390.  My instruction sheet is dated May 1972.        Joe Gibeault

Joe -

This confirms what I posted above. The 3903S had a different Climatic Control in that the external steel pointer bar and center set screw was replaced with the later model bakerlite shell with 3 perimeter screws and a scribed notch to set the rich/lean setting. The jets are the same.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT