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ticking/rattling power steering pump

Started by Julien Abrahams, April 19, 2016, 02:21:52 AM

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Julien Abrahams

Hey guys, another question about the power steering pump on my '67.
Lately it has developed a rattle/ticking sound that increases with engine/pulley RPM after the oil has warmed up.
I replaced the seals of the pump (all the o-rings) about 4 years ago as it was leaking pretty badly. I recall that when putting it back it took quite some effort to get the belt properly tight (new belt). When I first put it back together the belt squeeled like a piglet as soon as I started the car and turned the wheel.
Would it be a good idea to remove, take apart, clean, check for burrs or something, put a new sealing kit in it and try again? That would be the first time for me opening up the insides of the pump.
1954 Cadillac series 62
1967 Cadillac Sedan De Ville HT
1969 Austin Healey Sprite
1979 Opel Kadett

Steve Passmore

I know nothing about your year of car Julian but the trick we always use to determine if its just the belt making the noise before pulling the pump apart is to spray a shot of WD40 or some penetrating oil on it as its turning. If its the belt the noise will stop temperately. Otherwise its probably the bearings.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Dan LeBlanc

Interesting.  My father always used liquid dish detergent for the same thing.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Scot Minesinger

You replaced the seals and the leak stopped, so maybe you had two problems leaks and bearings.  I have replaced several power steering pumps only to have bad bearings become an audible tachometer for me on the new ps pump - very annoying.  You probably need a new unit, buy a ps pump from a trusted source because it is not that much fun installing them.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Steve Passmore

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on April 19, 2016, 07:58:14 AM
Interesting.  My father always used liquid dish detergent for the same thing.

That works too Dan but gives a bit too much of a sticky jet rather than a nice fine spray.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Julien,
First of all, I am sure you have checked the fluid level in the reservoir. The belt adjustment should not have been that difficult if you have the correct belt and use the method to tension the belt that the shop manual suggests (build a tool).
It is possible you have tightened the belt too much putting strain on the bearing.  I would take the belt off and turn the pump over by hand. You should hear/feel any roughness in the bearing. IF you want to get a replacement I would suggest Rock Auto.

http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/cadillac,1967,deville,7.0l+429cid+v8,1320185,steering,power+steering+pump,7380

I have never had any issues with any of the Cardone rebuilt units

Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

savemy67

Hello Julien,

The '67 power steering pump has no bearing, only a bushing.  You may want to look at my thread in the Restoration Corner section of this forum (see "High School Reunion with 1967 Sedan DeVille", fourth page, replies 76 and 77).

The rattle/ticking sound could come from a number of sources - loose pulley nut/pulley, broken end plate spring, broken shaft retaining ring - but the most likely source based on your description would be a problem with the vanes/rotor within the pump.  This would require dis-assembly of the pump to verify the problem.

If any of the hard parts (rotor, vanes, cam ring, end plate, shaft) are damaged, you may be better off buying a rebuilt pump.  If all the hard parts are intact, you can get a rebuild kit from RockAuto for about $8.00 plus shipping.  Be sure to get a kit that includes the bushing.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Not to be a "you know what", but a bushing IS a bearing.  A sleeve bearing.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Steve Passmore

I think the point Christoper was making Greg is that a bronze 'Bush' does not tend to make the same rattling noise as a bearing when worn out rather than him being pedantic ;)
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

TJ Hopland

Putting something on the belt to try and determine if its a belt issue is where I would start.  It seems that modern belts are not quite the same shape as vintage ones and are certainly a different type of material so they seem to react differently than what most of us are used to.   

I had huge issues with my diesels on the alternators.   The diesels take a lot out of the dual batteries starting so the alternator is heavily loaded at first and really shows up any belt issues.   What I finally ended up doing that seems to be working is took a dremel type tool with a small stone on it and scuffed up the pulley.   I figured it would be hard on belts but its been 2 or 3 years now and I have had no issues.

Has the 67 got a dual belt like the 68-74?   If so maybe its an issue with the belts not being perfectly matched.  I think back in the day if you had a multi belt setup you bought them as a matched set from the factory.  Not sure if that meant they were just from the same run or if they actually measured them. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

savemy67

Hello Julien,

Perhaps I should have said that the '67 power steering pump does not have a ball or roller bearing.  I reviewed my copy of Baumeister & Marks "Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers" (seventh edition, McGraw Hill, 1951), and indeed, as Greg said, the bushing in the power steering pump could certainly be identified as a fluid-film bearing, just like the main, connecting rod, and camshaft bearings in the engine block.

My TH400 transmission has about a dozen fluid-film bearings but these are almost exclusively identified by the term "bushing".  In both the '64 and '67 Cadillac shop manuals that I have, the fluid-film bearing in the power steering pump is called a "bushing" by Cadillac.  Not to beat around the "bush", but I hope you have been able to "bear" with me (you too, Greg  :))

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

The Tassie Devil(le)

One could describe all bearings as "Fluid Film" bearings, as without any sort of lubrication, metal to metal contact will soon destroy a bearing.

Even Ball Bearings ride on a microscopic amount of fluid to work.   Yes, the grease is a fluid.   A thick fluid, but a fluid.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

I always used a bar of soap on the pulley. .That Irish Spring smell sure helped "wake up" my old hi school car in the morning.

Put your hand on the pump and see if you can 'feel' the tick. I put that Lucas stuff in my old pump
It smoothed the steering and stopped the leaks but it also quieted the pump.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Julien Abrahams

Thanks fior the replies guys.

I was aware of the fact that the pump uses a sort of bushing that acts like a bearing.
As it only starts to make noise after the oil is warm, I am leaning towards (one of the) vanes with which something is amiss.
With regard to tensioning the belt. I don't use a tool. I was pretty scared of overdoing it so I started with fairly little tension which made the (new) belt squeel like a piglet when I started the engine and turned the wheel. I then gradually tightened it more until the belt no longer squeeled which I found hard because the tension changes everytime you loosen the bolts that secure the pump to the engine block.
Would it be worth the trouble opening it up to see if I can find something possibly rebuild? Or is it a better idea to just replace. I found them on Rockauto.  Re-manufactured by Cardone and they around $50,- ex. shipping. 
1954 Cadillac series 62
1967 Cadillac Sedan De Ville HT
1969 Austin Healey Sprite
1979 Opel Kadett