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Author Topic: How best to store R-12 freon cans?  (Read 2162 times)

Offline chrisntam

  • Posts: 3472
  • Dallas, Texas
  • CLC Number: 29206
  • Name: Chris Jessen
How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« on: April 28, 2016, 09:45:48 PM »
I was at the swap meet today, picked up a 12 pack of R-12 1 pound cans.  Plan on storing it until needed when my certified a/c mechanic may need to recharge the system.

How is it best stored for the long haul (years) so it won't leak out?

Any ideas?
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

Offline jsanford

  • Posts: 63
  • Name: Jeremy Sanford
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2016, 12:37:44 AM »
Just keep them in a cool dry place. The only reason they would leak is if they rusted through from outside moisture.

Jeremy
Jeremy
Sacramento, CA
1981 Eldorado
2016 ELR

Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2016, 11:02:55 AM »
Chris,
I think they are probably 12 ounce cans.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline Jon S

  • Posts: 2559
  • Name: J. Schapiro
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2016, 01:49:36 PM »
Better way to store them - send them to me!
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Offline chrisntam

  • Posts: 3472
  • Dallas, Texas
  • CLC Number: 29206
  • Name: Chris Jessen
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2016, 02:33:04 PM »
Chris,
I think they are probably 12 ounce cans.
Greg Surfas

Yes, the 12 ounce cans as opposed to a 30 pound drum.....I ended up paying about $16 per can yesterday.

I passed on a thirty pounder for $380.   I recall passing on Freon back in the day when is was $0.99 per can.   ::)
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

Offline 76eldo

  • Posts: 6651
  • CLC Number: 22443
  • Name: Brian Rachlin
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2016, 03:04:15 PM »
Grab the 30 pounder for $380.

That's a great deal if it's a sealed can.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
CLC # 22443
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

bill06447

  • Guest
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2016, 08:54:49 PM »
If the can leaks it's empty. I just bought 9 on eBay came to 20 a can including shipping...6 14 oz and 3 12 oz they all had Kmart price stickers $1.05!

Bill

Offline bcroe

  • Posts: 3895
How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2016, 09:20:56 PM »
I still have R12 around here, but decided not to use it until new
barrier hoses are put on.  When its gone, I'll be using the dirt cheap
propane-butane combination.  Bruce Roe

Offline 76eldo

  • Posts: 6651
  • CLC Number: 22443
  • Name: Brian Rachlin
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2016, 09:41:27 PM »
Bruce,

That's a dangerous option.  If you have a sudden leak anywhere it could be a disaster.

I'd think about that one...

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
CLC # 22443
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Offline bcroe

  • Posts: 3895
How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2016, 09:55:40 PM »
Bruce,
That's a dangerous option.  If you have a sudden leak anywhere it could be a disaster.
I'd think about that one...   Brian 

I already had a trial run after getting a charge from a Cad owner outside
the USA.  It worked quite well till it leaked out.  No one has convinced
me 1.5 lb of propane is as dangerous as the 200 lb of gasoline I
carry around.  There is a 500 gallon tank of propane connected to
pipes running around my house, which worry me much more.  Bruce Roe

Offline fishnjim

  • Posts: 2431
  • Name: J. Bozin
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2016, 10:36:58 PM »
I used to make some refrigerants and blends but not my main job.   R-12 is still in production in China for a few bucks a pound as far as I know.   Just "google" it.   But I believe it's illegal to import/sell in small cans in US thanks to the EPA.  But they're on ebay???   It's one of those you can't make it in certain places, if they signed the Montreal protocol, but some can use/make if they didn't, just don't put in the atmosphere if you did, silly regs.   One has to be "certified" here.   Which is not hard to do.   So don't hoard it quite yet.   This whole subject is held hostage in insanity by the EPA, so if they do global warming regs, might as well move someplace else.   We'll be permitted to breath out CO2 on even days or something.   
Of course, unless you source directly, you get gouged.   If you have to pay that kind of money, you pay for the conversion.   A certified refrigerant tech can obtain it in =>20 lbs still as far as I know, even 22.   I don't know how they got around the certification requirement for 134a which you can get at the DIY parts store.   
The new holy grail refrigerant coming out is 1234yf.   Diamler had issues in testing and has not approved it, but most everyone else is going to it.  Slight risk of fire but nothing like the alkanes.   
There are some commercial blends that perform well in 12 systems but may not be available for mobile sources.   Talk to a local HVAC person or auto shop and see what they pay for a 20 lber or what to substitute.   Where there's a will...
fyi: https://www.epatest.com/609/manual/609_section3.html
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2015-title40-vol18/xml/CFR-2015-title40-vol18-part82-subpartF.xml

Offline Jeff Rose CLC #28373

  • Posts: 2324
  • CLC Number: 28373
  • Name: Jeff Rose
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2016, 11:58:00 PM »
A vault!
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2016, 12:43:16 AM »
Bruce,
While Propane/Butane mix is an excellent refrigerant I does not mix well with the lubricants required for operation (compressor, moving valves/components) of systems originally intended to use R-12 and mineral oil.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline bcroe

  • Posts: 3895
How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2016, 10:53:25 AM »
Bruce,
While Propane/Butane mix is an excellent refrigerant I does not mix well with the lubricants required for operation (compressor, moving valves/components) of systems originally intended to use R-12 and mineral oil.  Greg Surfas 

That could be a problem; didn't show up on the trial a couple decades ago. 
I think the only moving parts in my R4 systems are in the compressor.  Bruce

Offline gary griffin

  • Posts: 2322
  • garygriffin@Q.com
  • CLC Number: 26430
  • Name: Gary Griffin
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2016, 11:17:39 AM »
Bruce, I would be more concerned about the propane/butane under the hood and blowing back to my cabin if I were driving then the gas in the rear of my car, So many possible ignition sources under the hood and and so few in the rear area.  Any loose wire could ignite the mixture if there was a leak and then??

I was considering alternate gases for my 1957 A C but Greg Surfas seminar at Grand National convince me it would be preferable to stick with R-12
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 11:20:05 AM by gary griffin »
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2016, 12:18:57 PM »
Bruce,
The compressor does need oil so if it does not circulate it will eventually run dry.  In regards to the rest of the system, all the components such as any orifice devices or heat transfer surfaces were designed anticipating there would be a film of oil, or actual "puddles" of oil in the expected locations in the system. If you are going to use anything other than a known and numbered refrigerant I would be sure and determine which lubricant would suffice.  Just a little chemistry, thermodynamics, fluid flow and lubricity studies should get you to the place where you could find a lubricant that might be effective.
Another factor is the critical temperature of Propane is a full 30 degrees (F) colder than R-12, so in extreme conditions where you have exceeded that temperature under the hood, Propane will not condense, regardless of the pressure applied, and your cycle stops.
That said, let us know about the longevity and performance as you experience it.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline bcroe

  • Posts: 3895
How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2016, 12:36:10 PM »
I am no chemical engineer, but the Cad owner who introduced me to this
alternative is.  Lately I have just let the A/C in my cars leak down and be
unused; saving my last R12 for a "special event"?  The weather typically
just isn't that hot here, and the 70 mph breeze helps.  The year I get back to
this, perhaps I'll try something different in each car and see what happens. 
If we really need air, there is the Honda which never seems to lose its charge. 
Bruce Roe

Offline Dynamic88

  • Posts: 17
  • Name: T King
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2016, 09:38:06 PM »
I already had a trial run after getting a charge from a Cad owner outside
the USA.  It worked quite well till it leaked out.  No one has convinced
me 1.5 lb of propane is as dangerous as the 200 lb of gasoline I
carry around.  There is a 500 gallon tank of propane connected to
pipes running around my house, which worry me much more.  Bruce Roe

I agree. Hopefully soon all the "fireball" fear-mongering lectures given to those who don't use the tightly price-controlled mainstream refrigerants will stop now that they're putting that R-1234yf stuff in new cars. I'd rather run propane/butane than that anyday, that is if I can't get my hands on R-12.

Offline TJ Hopland

  • Posts: 10188
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2016, 09:01:40 AM »
Anyone know if the small appliances that used R12 had the lube in the refrigerant or were they more of a 4 stroke design where they had an oil sump?   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Offline fishnjim

  • Posts: 2431
  • Name: J. Bozin
Re: How best to store R-12 freon cans?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2016, 11:41:46 AM »
Refrigerant compressors usually run with the lubricant in the refrigerant loop, no sump.   It takes a test stand to test lubricants and you need different ones for different refrigerants.    So I don't recommend fooling around yourself.   You can lock up those vintage compressors.
Obviously, there's no magic refrigerant that works good, is non-flammable, and doesn't affect the atmosphere.   That's why they used 12 initially, best choice, but once the number of vehicles rose, it created the problem.   CO2 acts is a refrigerant but needs high pressure.   
Now almost all the vehicle compressors, new and rebuilt, are coming out of China, so the quality isn't always up to par.  So that shoots the whole don't leak - trained technician concept in the rear.    If they used a good compressor and good seals, they'd last decades and not leak like your old refrigerators.   Which are hermetically sealed systems.   I had commercial systems run 24-7 for decades.
When you sell cars, eg: Volkswagon, and you put out something that the lawyers can take you to the cleaners on, you're a bit more cautious.   It makes no sense to value only the emission but not the mileage gains.   
These pollutant reduction health impact "estimates" are BS.   They extrapolate data beyond known bounds.   It's the 55 vs 70 mph argument.   Yeah, you use less gas at 55 but you have to travel longer to get to your destination, so your burning gas longer.  When you take that into account, the difference is not so large, but they brain wash people with the govt hype.   

 

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