Adding A/C to a 1961

[Brent Hladky #21519]

How much do you folks think it would cost to have air conditioning tastefully added to a 1961 by a reputable professional?  I would like to have it done "without damage" such that a future owner, if desired, could remove it.  With respect to having it added, would there be a significant cost differential to having a new system put in versus having an original 1961 system installed (I already have a complete original, albeit unrestored, extra a/c system in my possession)?  Thanks for all your input!

[bcroe]

How much do you folks think it would cost to have air conditioning tastefully added to a 1961 by a reputable professional?  I would like to have it done "without damage" such that a future owner, if desired, could remove it.  With respect to having it added, would there be a significant cost differential to having a new system put in versus having an original 1961 system installed (I already have a complete original, albeit unrestored, extra a/c system in my possession)? 

At the beginning of the 60s, our blue oval friends offered a factory A/C
system which was basically the same as the add ons of the time.  I was
able to transfer one of these without much issue, including the enhanced
cooling system & different pulleys.  But once the A/C is combined with the
heating, it means removing a lot of the existing car.  This will make things
far more difficult, and I'd wager you don't REALLY have all the parts needed. 
good luck, Bruce Roe

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

Bruce,
I'm confused & I'm sure the OP is also. One minute you're talking about the butt ugly archaic AC units that Ford offered. Then in the next minute you're betting he doesn't have all the Factory AC parts to do a correct conversion.
Bob

[Scot Minesinger]

Have some experience in Cadillac a/c repairs, restored over a dozen systems from the 1960's and 1970's and even a few 1980's.

As Steve wrote it is best to install the factory system.  The under dash add on look like S---, without question.  If I see a car with an add on under dash a/c I take 15k off the value of what would otherwise be a nice example.  Having the a/c system issued by the factory also requires engine modifications too, such as a return fuel line to prevent vapor lock, a fan shroud, idle speed up and other devices.  These other devices would be required if you added on an under dash unit too and are generally required no matter what a/c system is installed.  Many leave them off, but they are needed when it is hottest out, so install them too. 

Since you are willing to deviate from authenticity I read that the 1962 system under the hood, the TXV, hoses and the like that join compressor/evaporator/condenser is a better system and many install a 1962 system in lieu of a 1961 system on 1961 Cadillacs in DC area.

This question came up before on a 1964 Cadillac and the conclusion seemed to be that it is such an ordeal that it is better to buy a car with a/c already installed.  Unless this is a family or treasured 1961 Cadillac I would sell it and buy one with a/c as the most economical option.

All that written the idea that you are going to have a "shop" install this and not you is a huge risk to the existing desirability of the car now.  They won't put the dash back correctly and you will have squeaks and rattles, they will break other components, they will not take responsibility for anything, and it may never work.  Unless you are dealing with a first rate restoration type shop that commands an excellent reputation as learned by trusted sources do it yourself.  Like I wrote before, working on a 1972 Eldo drop top after another shop was in the dash, and the way it was done was to lower top and use back hoe to remove dash-kidding but resembled "breaking rather than unscrewing".  Since you wrote about a shop doing this work, it is probably best to buy an a/c car and sell this one.  If this was an a/c car then restore the system.  The a/c parts you have can easily be restored (when I write easy, they are durable and just need to be cleaned and refinished).

I do this kind of work out necessity and sometimes for others and doing it right is going to be very expensive, especially making it look authentic.  It is all about patience, reading, and taking the time to do it right.

Keep us posted.

[bcroe]

Bruce,
I'm confused & I'm sure the OP is also. One minute you're talking about the butt ugly archaic AC units that Ford offered. Then in the next minute you're betting he doesn't have all the Factory AC parts to do a correct conversion.    Bob   

Sorry if that was confusing.  Some of us Dilbert types are a lot more concerned
with performance, than how ugly something might be.   I'm pretty thorough, and
I thought I got every piece of a 64 Galaxy A/C, but in the end I had to go back to
the junk yard for something before it was working in a 64 Merc.  If that doesn't
happen to the OP, I salute his skill.  Back then I transferred a few such units from
junkers to other cars (huge discount), not too difficult.  But I have a very expert
friend who attempted to move a 67 factory system to another car of the same
model, and failed.  Seemed certain body parts were different.  good luck, Bruce Roe

[fishnjim]

Nothing like getting an estimate from two or more shops.   
If you have all the parts including the dash pieces I can easily see a manweeks worth of labor to install, so ~$85-100 /hr.   It ain't going to be cheap.   That doesn't include charging the system, parts, rebuild, etc.   If they use R12, who knows what they'll charge for that.   
You can try to figure out the cost from the mechanics or body shop "labor rate" books to compare with the estimates.   If shop hasn't done this exact vehicle before, I suspect it'll be T&M, and the skies the limit.   Maybe U need to talk to one of the Cad restorer shops that has done this.   If it's done right with original parts, I don't think it'll detract from the value much albeit will be "non-original", as people today, like A/C in their classic cars.   Just consider the value of the same car with A/C vs your car and the cost to convert might not be equitable.   

[Brent Hladky #21519]

Guys, thanks very much for your insight.  As always, it's greatly appreciated!  I'm still struggling with the decision because this is a very low mileage original, unmolested vehicle.  Understanding, as you've said, that I'd really need to find a very good shop to do this (install the period, factory unit) correctly, what should I expect the labor to cost?  Would $5K cover it?  Too high, too low?  My assumption is I have or would get whatever little remaining parts I might need and get them refurbished where necessary.  Also, if anyone has used a good mechanic to do this, I'd appreciate their contact information.  Thanks again for whatever info you can provide!!

[Scot Minesinger]

Brent,

Where are you located?

To do the job right by a real good mechanic who understands, reads, and is patient, 10k is my guess because there is engine work that needs to be done as well. 

Understand completely the low mileage nice original.  I would not add it to a car like that unless there was near zero risk that it would not be messed up.  I would make this a winter project for myself.  In your case if not doing this yourself, probably would use a famous restoration garage, like White Post, the Guild or the like to do this job. 

Standard shops are not set up to do this work.  For example in replacing the transmission cooler lines on a car, the supplier sent the 5/16" lines on a 72 Eldorado and the originals were 3/8".  The car was down and taking up a spot in my garage.  It is very important to keep a transmission cool and the smaller size lines resulted in a 30% reduction.  I waited a week with car taking up a spot and installed the correct product.  Normal shops don't do this-they install the 5/16" lines, the trans cooks itself during hot weather, and when you bring it back the reply is "these old cars, that is what happens, that will be $2,500 to fix it".

If you have a standard shop perform this work they will mess it all up.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Where are you located Brent.  There are thousands of specialty shops around the country that earn their living on classic cars and know how to do it correctly. Again your location will help us make a sugestion as to where you might go for an actual estimate or two.
$5,000 should definately cover the installation of  good, servicable components.
Greg Surfas

[bcroe]

in replacing the transmission cooler lines on a car, the supplier sent the 5/16" lines on a 72 Eldorado and the originals were 3/8".  The car was down and taking up a spot in my garage.  It is very important to keep a transmission cool and the smaller size lines resulted in a 30% reduction.  I waited a week with car taking up a spot and installed the correct product.  Normal shops don't do this-they install the 5/16" lines, the trans cooks itself during hot weather,   

OK, I have a jar of fittings that will screw into that trans; some are for 3/8"
tubing and some are for 5/16".  The pump is positive displacement so I
contend that the volume of fluid will be THE SAME.  The back pressure will
be different, making the ENGINE work a bit harder.  It might be interesting
to measure just what the difference is.  Bruce Roe

[Scot Minesinger]

Greg, and all:

I have restored a dozen climate controls where you remove all under hood components, where the entire system is removed, cleaned, media blasted, refinished and all reassembled as new.  Then the dash controls are replaced.  This usually includes new components such as compressor, hoses, drier (or VIR), expansion valve, evaporator, vacuum hoses and etc.  So when this goes back together, it really works and looks new.  I'm talking take the fiberglass evaporator housing out of the car, completely clean it, clear coat it, new rubbers, replace all actuators and etc. and reinstall.  Typically even at $50/hr the cost is 4 to 5k when you all done.  Maybe I'm slow, but they all work and look new when finished.

This job means you get a big batch of used parts that would be for a 1961 Cadillac.  Then you have to clean and restore them all.  After that their is tremendous dash dissassembly work, including ductwork (essentially two independent systems in 1961).  I don't see how this could be done correctly and to a discerning client's satisfaction for less than 5k.

The $1400 of repairs on Steven's car are just the tip of the iceberg on this work, his car was already perfect - no clean up of brackets and etc. required.  Then you have all the engine work, fan shroud (that has to be media blasted and finished), adding a return fuel line (some might disagree, but your crazy not to do this), and etc.  I would not touch this job for under 10k.  However, you would be happy with the result.


Bruce:

You might be right about the line size not mattering, but my experience with a pump is that if the pipes are smaller so is the fluid flow and pressure is higher.  Why chance it?  I would fly into a rage if a trans shop did that to me.  It was not a matter of not having the fittings (I save all those fittings too and could have made it work), it was that the car came with 3/8" lines and this is an important component that protects the longevity of the system.  Cadillac spent millions engineering these cars and I'm not going to change things out of convenience, which may reduce the life of the transmission due to improper heat removal.  These cars are generally driven much more during hot weather and it is not worth the risk.

[Dan LeBlanc]

In 1961, don't forget, a/c was still also available as a dealer-installed accessory.  Dash removal is not necessary to install in a 61.  The ductwork comes in through the passengers side vent location, the driver's side gets blocked off, different kick panels get installed.  The ductwork runs along the bottom of the dash and can be installed working up from the floor.  AC system has it's own wiring harness for the compressor, idle speed up, and fan switch, and of course a vacuum harness - all of which can be routed with the dash pad removed as it all passes through the underhood case.

The underhood components are very simple to install.

The system is nowhere near as complicated as the later units. 

Remember, this could be installed as a dealer accessory, so installation is not complex at all.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Maybe I missed it but the radiator, fuel pump, fuel filter assy, fan, carburetor and front suspension (springs) are all air-specific items.

Also don't forget the condenser and and mounting hardware.

Ideally, the best way to tackle this endeavor would be the purchase of a [factory-equipped] air conditioned donor car thereby providing direct evidence of a factory installed system, as well as all the necessary parts and bits needed to complete the job. 

[Dan LeBlanc]

Very sound advice Eric.  That way, it can be transplanted component by component.  Start at one end and work through all the components connected in sequence until you get to the other end.

No matter how complete a system is professed to be, it's always missing SOMETHING.

I have a low mileage original 1961 and a complete parts car.  The parts car had a/c.  I though about it for a moment and putting it in the good car doing all the work myself so I know what I have.  Notice the key word is MOMENT.  The biggest challenge for me would be to find dash vents in exactly the same colour (accounting for fading) and condition as my dash to avoid altering the originality of the pieces that would be left behind.

Three years later, I still roll down my window or open the vents.  With the vent windows open, and the floor vents open, the car is like a wind tunnel in there.

IF, I were to add AC to the car, it would be an under-dash mount unit that could be tastefully removed leaving ZERO traces of its existence.  Easily done by routing the refrigerant lines through one of the a/c blanking plates (using a spare from my stash that I could drill) and existing holes in the dash for the unit mounting and in the radiator support for the condenser.

[Brent Hladky #21519]

Thanks for all the input.  I'm here in Colorado.

Someone suggested another a/c alternative.  What about one with the fan mounted in the trunk (old school style) and using the original old 1954 - 1956 Caddy vents on the rear package tray?  This would hopefully avoid the need to monkey with the dash.  Would want to remove and save the original package tray and covering material as holes would be required, but I assume I could come up with a suitable replacement for them.  Could this not be a reasonable solution, in terms of price (opinion seems to be that the complete "original" conversion is the most expensive), appearance (opinion seems to be that the under dash mount unit isn't very visually appealing), while relatively inexpensive and maintaining the ability to remove the system if required?  Heard that a downside would be that it will take an extra minute or two to cool down the front seat area since the cold air would be coming from the back, but if that's the only downside this could be a good solution?  Interested to hear thoughts on this solution including its cost.

Thanks for the input again!

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Frankly, I think that would be begging for trouble.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Brent,
You asked about installing Ac into a non ac car with ALL of the Ac components at hand.  You certainly got a lot of opinions but Don,'s post regarding the fact that often the ac components came in a package for dealer installation.
That in mind I would suggest you get the instrucions for this field instruction, be it in the service manual or a supplementary publication.
That will indicate all the parts and procedures for this task.
You can verify you have everything and you can show the instructions to prospective installers in order to get a price.
With verification of the parts and an estimate of the installation cost you can answer your question regarding the viability of this route to AC.
I remember as a kid watching dealership mechanics doing this and THEY didn't think this was any big deal.
Greg Surfas