Need info on a 1947 Cadillac Flat Head V8

[chstitans42]

Here is the story. I have a lead on a nice 47 Caddy 4 door sedan for what I would consider a decent price. The catch is the motor. According to the seller, they have replaced the pistons and rings, but still have low compression on some of the cylinders, preventing the engine from starting. I have never worked on a flat head engine before so this is all new to me. If it was an over head valve V8 I would just take the heads in to get re worked but obviously this will not work. Anyone have experience with these engines? He says the engine will cough and sputter but will not start. Any one have experience in re grinding the valve seats in these engines?

[Steve Passmore]

There could be any number of things causing this not least very bad bores or something completely different. I have seen engines with dreadfully low compression and they still start right up.  If the engine has had valve work then that could be the problem as the valve to camshaft measurement is critical.  A valve job on these engines is not for the complete novice.  I would look to more obvious things like ignition and fuel before I start to break it down.

[Bobby B]

Ben,
Hi. Steve knows his stuff, as do others on the forum. Be careful what you're getting into with a Flathead. The engine is not that cheap to rebuild, and you need a machine/machinist shop in the know to do it.  How about the Hydra-matic Trans? Also, the same situation as the Motor. I've rebuilt them myself, and there's a few tricks and tips as Steve pointed out. It could be something very simple, if you understand the nature of the beast. It's a great engine, once you understand it's strengths and weaknesses. Feel free to give me a shout if you want to talk. I'm in NJ, EST.
                         Bobby

[chstitans42]

I might as well post up the link to the old ebay ad. The pics make the car looks pretty crappy, but it looks better in person. (I know that is hard to believe! I was shocked as well

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-Cadillac-Other-/322011777600?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT&nma=true&si=LXCDOEj4EH5HEfrXWPIuLd6O%252Fq0%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Here is what the seller sent to me when I asked him why it did not run and what was the deal with the low compression:

"All of the valves are opening and closing, but there is low compression on several of the cylinders after doing a compression test. I'm tired of taking the engine out of the car and taking it apart, and need the garage space for four 1932 Buicks that are coming in April. Valves and seats need to be properly ground, then I think it will run. It coughs and fires a couple of times but will not run. Could possibly need a camshaft, too--I saw some wear on the lobes but thought it was good enough to go with as-is, maybe not. Did not do main bearings."

[Bobby B]

Ben,
Hi. Are you understanding the seller here, because I'm not. Rings/ Bearings are relatively easy to do in a Flathead, but most likely not the problem in the first place. By removing the heads, no valve work can actually be performed. I have no idea what he's talking about. The block has to come out, lifter blocks out, lifters out, new valves, guides, new seats (or ground), and most likely camshaft is worn which could very well be your problem. Who in their right mind would go through the trouble of removing a Flathead engine, do rings and bearings, and not bother to check the top end? In my eyes, that's the part of the engine that needs to be looked at closely, before anything else. They must've just did a quick fix hone, and change the bearing shells thinking it was going to solve their problem. I don't think the seller knows what they're doing to be quite honest with you. If you buy it, plan on doing a full rebuild on the engine. You're in the 5K plus range by the time you're done to do it right. I guarantee they never looked at the oiling system, lines, fittings, and the top end was wiped out due to lack of oil/ maintenance. A few flattened cam lobes and guess what? No Compression = No firing. Just be  cautious and go into it knowing that the engine is going to need to be rebuilt. I went through 3 blocks before I found a good one. You get an education real fast. Many thanks to people on this forum who have helped me out over the years.
                                                                                                                                      Bobby

[chstitans42]

5k to build a motor on a car that I doubt I could get $7500 for when all said and done.

[chstitans42]

Also he said he just did pistons and rings, did not do any of the bearings... Why do that work and not replace the bearings, same goes for what you said, why not the top end as well?

[Bobby B]

If you're buying it to flip it, I would stay away.  It's a bad investment. I thought you wanted it for a keeper, which in that case, who cares what you have into it, if you enjoy the car and it makes you happy.
                                                                                                    Bobby
                                                   

[Steve Passmore]

 I saw this car on ebay and even put a bid on it but reading what the seller said worried me just like it did Bobby. Nothing made any sense and now to read he's "Tired of taking the engine out" worries me even more. You don't need to remove the engine for heads , rings or bearings.

Cadillac valve seats are a particular shape Ben with 3 different angles. They can be ground by loosing some of the shape but if its severe you loose all the angles and the valve drops too near the camshaft and there's very little of the valve stem to be ground off. That means all new valve inserts to bring the valves back up to height. Not a simple valve job like most cars.
I was half interested because I have an engine I could put in it but for someone  who has to rebuild that motor it could well turn out expensive.
Worse by my book when someone with no knowledge has been into it.

[chstitans42]

I already have my 56 as a keeper Caddy. Do you guys think the 4k he wants is a lot? I mean the bidding only went up to $3,300. He also took the car to the Pate swapmeet with $4k on the sign and it did not sell. Would you think $2,500 would be a better price?

[Steve Passmore]

Much better price!

[chstitans42]

Problem is I do not think he will go that low. I believe he bought it to "flip" but was stopped short when he could not get the engine to run. I have a feeling that it will not be going anywhere anytime soon at the $4k he wants for it

[Bobby B]

Steve, What's your opinion on Flipping a Flathead?  The person who purchased that must've been clueless as to what he was getting into. They are as simple as they are complicated. A vehicle with a Flathead engine would be one of the last cars that I would even think of Flipping. You're most likely not going to get out of that mess without some form of problems......
                                                                                                                               Bobby

[Paul Phillips]

The bad pix make it hard to see the details, but there are several things about this car that don't make good sense.  Agree completely about the engine issues being made worse by someone who didn't understand the design. Chopping the front off the core support/shroud assembly makes zero sense. Who & why was that done?  Looks like a fair amount of wiring and tubing mods under hood. Note that instead of fixing the turn signals, someone added an aftermarket switch.  When you can see that much in the written description and bad pix, it is scary what else someone may have "modified". By the time you sorted those things, this would be a money pit, never viable to fix and flip.  And the interior would still need help, probably the body too. If it was a sedanette, you could make a case to resto mod, but not a sedan.

What a shame that careless previous owners have made another good car into parts or scrap!

[Bobby B]

The bad pix make it hard to see the details, but there are several things about this car that don't make good sense.  Agree completely about the engine issues being made worse by someone who didn't understand the design. Chopping the front off the core support/shroud assembly makes zero sense. Who & why was that done?  Looks like a fair amount of wiring and tubing mods under hood. Note that instead of fixing the turn signals, someone added an aftermarket switch.  When you can see that much in the written description and bad pix, it is scary what else someone may have "modified". By the time you sorted those things, this would be a money pit, never viable to fix and flip.  And the interior would still need help, probably the body too. If it was a sedanette, you could make a case to resto mod, but not a sedan.

What a shame that careless previous owners have made another good car into parts or scrap!

Paul,
I agree 100%. In all Honesty, just from the few pics, the car looks like it's been Hacked. Someone most likely got in over their head and now they're looking to bale. Oh Well.......
                                                  Bobby

[savemy67]

Hello Ben,

If you have an affinity for the '47, consider it on your terms.  If $2500 is what you want to pay, and you want that car, stick to that price, and be prepared to walk away if the seller hems and haws.  You have a nice '56 that may need transmission work in the future.  Given the questionable condition of the '47, it would not be a good bet from the standpoint of flipping it.  If you want to add a '47 to your garage, go for it, but remember that it is a different animal than your '56 - flathead engine, 6 volt electrical system, lever-action shocks, etc.  Good luck.

respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter

[chstitans42]

Thanks everyone for their advice. I think I will let this project sit. I might get back in touch with the guy in a few months and see where he is at. I am sure the car will still be around after talking with him.