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1953 Power Steering issues - post pump rebuild - RESOLVED!

Started by Tye_Cowan, May 31, 2016, 04:39:06 PM

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Tye_Cowan

Power Steering operated great, with the exception of a leaking front seal.

Rebuild kit purchased (overkill), complete teardown (with pics taken at each step), "O" rings replaced, vanes inspected and in place, front seal replaced (now I know I could have done this without the complete rebuild), tank seals replaced, tank seal spacers manufactured and installed, all reassembled and installed.  NO LEAKS!

But No Power Assist either.   :-[

Double checked everything I could think of including the rotation direction marked on the pump.  Drained the pump, dismantled it, cleaned each piece (*), reinspected, re-verified assembly against the original photos, reassembled, reinstalled, and achieved the same results.  No Leak.  No Noise.  No Assist.

(*)The only thing that has me troubled is the 3M Gasket Sealer that was used on the tank gaskets.  Some oozed into the system during the first assembly.

Questions:

  • Could some of the 3M goo have clogged or seized a critical valve or port?
  • What happens if the pressure relief valve sticks?
  • Are there any adjustments to be made on the pressure relief valve?
  • If the "O" rings weren't seated properly, wouldn't it be leaking?

Anyone willing to help build a complete fault tree analysis?   :D

A friend suggested I start the engine, and crack open the high pressure fitting to see if it is under pressure, if it is, then the trouble is in the steering box.  I know "the book" says she should be putting out 700psi minimum.  But if she's putting out only 500psi, wouldn't the loose fitting still spray violently?  What is done to increase the output pressure?

Tonight, I'll be going to the parts store to create the pressure test kit.

All ideas and suggestions will be appreciated.
Tye Cowan
1953 Series 75

savemy67

Hello T M Cowan,

I am assuming the book you refer to is a '53 shop manual.  If the book says pump output pressure should be 700 PSI, I would speculate that if the pump produced 500 PSI, you would get some assist, not no assist.  So your friend's suggestion to crack the high pressure side will at least determine if the pump is producing pressure.  I do not have a '53 shop manual, but it may have a diagnostic "tree" - later manuals do.

For your pressure test kit - are you going to plumb a high-pressure gauge into the line?  Has the system been properly bled?

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Tye_Cowan

You are correct.  I am using the 52/53 Caddilac Shop manual.  On my first attempt, I followed the instructions to bleed the system.

  • Fill the reservoir
  • Let it sit for 2 min
  • lift the front end
  • turn wheels lock to lock twice
  • start the car
  • turn wheels lock to lock twice
  • lower vehicle

No joy.

Tonight, I reassembled the pump again, ensuring the tiny port for the pressure relief valve in the tail housing was clear.  I'll bleed it again tomorrow and report back.

I hope it isn't the power steering box.  That will be a major pain.
Tye Cowan
1953 Series 75

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

When you bled the system did the fluid level drop? I agree with cracking open the hi pressure line but also suggest the same with your return line. Having hi pressure is one thing, making all the way thru the system is another.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Tye_Cowan

I couldn't see any bubbles, as I was in the driver's seat with no clear line of sight.

I'll Crack the return line and see what happens.

Thanks for the suggestions!
Tye Cowan
1953 Series 75

Tye_Cowan

Found another thread here with the same issue (No Power Assist after Pump Rebuild).

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=102745.0

The last page indicates the solution to be an incorrectly sized "O" ring in the rebuild kit.  I don't understand why that would cause the problem, but am willing to put in the 90 minutes to give it a try.

Anyone with a solid technical explanation for why this "O" ring would cause a loss of pressure is invited to reply.

Tye Cowan
Tye Cowan
1953 Series 75

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

Depending on where the O ring is.
The pump may be sucking air if the O ring doesnt seal well.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Tye_Cowan

#7
Problem solved. It was the O-ring. I will be writing a letter of complaint to the manufacturer of the rebuild kit.

With the use of a pressure test unit that was built by a local shop I was able to determine the problem was actually in the pump. The results before and after where startling.

The first picture shows the car with the car running at idle developing no pressure at all. The second picture shows the car running at idle with the high pressure hose shut off developing almost 750 PSI. The third picture shows the difference in the sizes of the O-rings the thicker one being the one that came from the rebuild kit.

Videos can be viewed here:
Kit O-ring:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqR4194bhow
Original O-ring:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvuYKwyeoic
O-ring comparison:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7mwYDANaiY
Tye Cowan
1953 Series 75

kav

good to know ,when I do mine . thanks for the posts .
1953 series 62
nicknamed  SERENA

Glen

Do you have the part number of the correct O ring?  The number before the dash is the material it is made of and after the dash is the size, cross section and ID. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

Tye_Cowan

In short, no,  I do not have the part number to either the old one that works, or the offending new one. 

Cadillac Master Parts List says it is Cadillac Part Number 5664578 with no size description.  It goes around the Pressure Plate, and between the Ring Cam and Rear Cover.

The pump is manufactured with 2 O-rings inside.  Both have nearly identical cross sections, and differentiate only by inner and outer diameters.

The rebuild kit came with an O-ring that matched exactly to larger of the originals, and the 2nd had a larger cross section than the one it was to replace.

The two O-rings pictured above compare the original O-ring's cross section to that of the one found in the kit.
Tye Cowan
1953 Series 75

PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192

Hi Tye, I am glad you found my old post on this issue. I am also sorry to see that the kit manufacturer has not corrected this problem as this makes the kit useless. I have two 54 PS pumps and I rebuilt both and was lucky that the old seals were reusable. I am sorry I did not reply to your question on my old post as I very rarely come on this forum since I realised that a number of people on here were using it as a political platform!
Phil 

D.Yaros

Quote from: PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192 on June 21, 2016, 03:26:55 PMI am sorry I did not reply to your question on my old post as I very rarely come on this forum since I realised that a number of people on here were using it as a political platform!
Phil
Phil, while I have missed your presence/participation I must have also missed the fact "that a number of people on here were using it as a political platform!"  That went right by me?
Dave Yaros
CLC #25195
55 Coupe de Ville
92 Allante
62 Olds  

You will find me on the web @:
http://GDYNets.atwebpages.com  -Dave's Den
http://graylady.atwebpages.com -'55 CDV site
http://www.freewebs.com/jeandaveyaros  -Saved 62 (Oldsmobile) Web Site
The home of Car Collector Chronicles.  A  monthly GDYNets newsletter focusing on classic car collecting.
http://www.scribd.com/D_Yaros/

Glen

Whenever I am dealing with O-rings I use the guide below.  If you go to page 12 it gives dash numbers for the various size of O-rings.  It makes it easy for me to find the right O-ring for a given job.  The list is by cross section first, then inside diameter. 

I even have it on my cell phone.
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

TJ Hopland

So there is a vendor out there that has been selling the same wrong part for 8 years now?   And everyone who has bought the kit from them can now take apart and reassemble their pumps in their sleep because they had done and re done it so many times?   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

CadillacRob

1950 series 61 sedan
1956 coupe de ville

Tye_Cowan

Tye Cowan
1953 Series 75

CadillacRob

Thats it.  They're on my shit list.

I bought a water pump rebuild kit from them thinking Id save some dough.  Kit comes, plastic bag reads "no returns if bag is opened".  Then I open it and read instructions only to find the new impeller needs to be machined down to fit in the water pump.  I immediately email asking them if I can return because I dont own a machine shop or lathe.  "No".   There goes $100  >:(.   I told them they need to make the buyer AWARE of that on their website so others dont waste money.  "Thanks for the suggestion".   Website STILL doesnt say anything, and never will.
1950 series 61 sedan
1956 coupe de ville

kudims

Had the same issue!!!

The thicker O-ring extrudes inside the chamber and does not let the pressure plate touch firmly the rotor wheel! And the pump does not produce any pressure.

One way is to find thinner O-ring (2mm), or to grind a bit the edge of the pressure plate, which can touch this o-ring. Both work

Bottom line: thicker O-ring after compression does not allow the pressure plate to stay in contact with the rotor assembly. Grind the outer diameter of the pressure plate to make it 1-1.5mm less in diameter, and it will work even with these thick o-rings.