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1958 Delco Moraine

Started by john estes, June 10, 2016, 11:51:02 PM

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john estes

Having trouble with the brakes on my 58 Series 62. The pedal goes to the floor, there are no external leaks and fluid level is full. I have repeatedly bleed the brakes and continue to get air bubbles in the fluid. I am looking for recommendations for a reputable rebuilder. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
John Estes
John Estes

wbdeford

whitepost.com has a great reputation and a lifetime warranty. 
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

Jon S

Quote from: john estes on June 10, 2016, 11:51:02 PM
Having trouble with the brakes on my 58 Series 62. The pedal goes to the floor, there are no external leaks and fluid level is full. I have repeatedly bleed the brakes and continue to get air bubbles in the fluid. I am looking for recommendations for a reputable rebuilder. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
John Estes

Have you tried bleeding the master via the valve at the top?  Be careful to protect for fluid drips/spray as this stuff eats paint.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

john estes

Well I decided to remove the booster and disassemble per service manual. There is brake fluid in the booster and all the booster rubber parts are swollen. Looks like I found the problem. Was checking out Cadillac Parts Ltd. They offer a rebuild kit with what looks like all rubber seals and gaskets along with push rod and piston cup. I'm going to give a try, there is no corrosion or pitting so I think it should work.
John Estes

J. Gomez

Quote from: john estes on June 11, 2016, 02:21:21 PM
Well I decided to remove the booster and disassemble per service manual. There is brake fluid in the booster and all the booster rubber parts are swollen. Looks like I found the problem. Was checking out Cadillac Parts Ltd. They offer a rebuild kit with what looks like all rubber seals and gaskets along with push rod and piston cup. I'm going to give a try, there is no corrosion or pitting so I think it should work.

John,

If you do not have the MC nut remover J-5794 you will have a hell of a time getting it off the MC. You could try rigged one up and hope for the best.

If you have brake fluid inside the vacuum booster most likely the MC seals are bad (vacuum one in particular), see picture below of the tool and seals inside the MC.

You just need the rebuilt kit for the MC and the gaskets unless you feel the rod and leather cup are bad. I have found the leather cup and wick can be clean and lubricate before placing them back. All the ones I’ve worked on these were in good condition.

Clean the lather cup and wick the best you can and socked the wick and cup in ATF fluid after cleaning. Drain some of the ATF fluid from the wick it needs to be wet to keep lubrication on the cup, use a paper towel or a rag to drain the excess.

Make sure to slightly lubricate the seals (w/brake fluid) and “O” rings before placing them in the M/C.

Good luck..!
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

wbdeford

I rebuilt mine and it is working fine.  I hope it works out!

One surprise occurred--I had a non standard vacuum seal in the master, which couldn't accommodate one of the spacers, so that spacer was missing.  Turned out it was easy to fabricate a ring from a hose clamp to use with the vacuum seal that came in the kit.  My booster parts were in such great shape I just cleaned them up and put them back together, though I did replace the bottom hose.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

john estes

Thanks for the advice guys! I already have removed the master cylinder nut, I just put an allen wrench in each hole and put a large screw driver in between the allen wrenchs and it turned pretty easily. I will order the parts Monday and let you know how it turns out when I get it back together and installed.
John Estes

wbdeford

I took quite a few pictures of mine at various stages of (dis)assembly.  Let me know if you get confused at any point and want to see some of them.
1958 Sedan de Ville

Past:
1956 Fleetwood 75 Sedan
1957 Fleetwood 60 Special
1958 Miller-Meteor Futura Landau Duplex
1960 Coupe de Ville
1966 De Ville Convertible
1970 De Ville Convertible
1971 Eldorado Convertible
1979 Sedan de Ville
1980 Seville

willits

Quote from: john estes on June 11, 2016, 02:21:21 PM
Was checking out Cadillac Parts Ltd. They offer a rebuild kit with what looks like all rubber seals and gaskets along with push rod and piston cup.

The lit from Cadillac Parts Ltd is good.  I put one in mine a few years back, and have had no problems.  The only thing in the kit that did not work was the foam rubber air filters.  They did not let enough air pass through and caused trouble with the idle.  I put in a less denser filter material and it was fine. 

If you do the booster as well, the kit does not come with the hose from the vacuum inlet to the booster piston.  You’ll’ either need to reuse the old molded hose or work a standard vacuum hose to fit in its place. 

Peter

Peter Willits
1958 Coupe DeVille http://bit.ly/1O6BGVu
1961 62 Convertible http://bit.ly/1O6BHst
2008 STS-V http://bit.ly/1O6CI3P

Tom Hoczyk , CLC 14044

I recently had to replace both the brake booster and master cylinder on my '62 Cadillac.  As the units were Bendix, not Moraine, I had a heck of a time finding them.  However I found great success with GM Obsolete in Phoenix.  They sell those units as a pair ONLY, which makes sense.  The rebuilt condition was superb and the price was fair.  You might want to try this and avoid all sorts of rebuilding aggravation, not to mention that, for safety reasons, if your rebuild is anything less than perfect, you risk a huge accident with faulty brakes.  Tom
Tom Hoczyk

fishnjim

There's leather and rubber parts in those brake systems, so you have to be careful what fluid you use.   If they're swollen, something fluid type was wrong.   Check the shop manual for procedure and fluid.   Do not use synthetic/silicone.   Some people over the years used to put various fluids in to try and cure booster issues, but the manual procedure should be adhered to.   
These Moraines' are notorious for having failures as you describe, and most recommend replacing with a modern booster dual system but that's a personal choice and if properly working, they're OK.   But it's your and your passengers safety at risk.   We hear more complaints about these than any other.
However, they depend on other components, like the vacuum system, etc. working properly so if just the booster is attended to you could have age related problems elsewhere.   I gave up after a year of wondering if I would have brakes and had the new stuff installed/wheel system rebuilt.   Went to electric wipers also.   Currently doing the rest of the car.  Motor and trans was rebuilt so no more vacuum issues.
Things don't last forever and when they had problems in the beginning, it's frustrating for the vintage authentic collector.

john estes

Sweet success, spoke with mike at Cadillac Parts LTD and he hooked me up with a rebuild kit for the cylinder and booster. Finished the rebuild and install this morning. It was a simple project with help from the factory service manual. I have had this car for more than 10 years and haven't driven it much because I was not confident in the brakes. After my road test this morning I realized there has always been a problem with the brakes. The car will stop on a dime now, wouldn't be scared to drive anywhere now. I do have a pull to the left on initial brake apply, but that shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.
John Estes