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1982 Fleetwood Brougham - $250,000?

Started by Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621, June 22, 2016, 07:16:49 PM

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Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Hess & Eisenhart Armored Car professed to have been built for Madam Shankai Shek

Video Description: (Asking price of $250,000 is stated in the video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P9Mfp6UYhM&feature=youtu.be

Engine is claimed to be a 368 but it looks more like an HT4100 to me.  ???

Ebay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-Fleetwood-Broham-/191902713311?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2cae4b05df:g:LoQAAOSwKfVXL6d9&item=191902713311

Looks like it's got a long way to go... ::)



A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Walter Youshock

A 4100 could barely propel the base car with 2 passengers. Let alone all that armorplate...

Must have a top speed of 12 mph...
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

bill06447

The listing says its a supercharged 4100....

Bill

Dan LeBlanc

$250000 and it looks like that????  I don't care if Pope John Paul II got it on with Mother Teresa in the back seat - it's not worth that. For that kind of money,  it better be fresh out of the wrapper and brand new let alone its current condition.

$4000 worth of car and $246000 worth of story?  I don't think so.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Walter Youshock

It does have the very rare power driver recliner though...
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

TJ Hopland

Supercharged 4100,  interesting.   I do see a non stock cast pipe under the air cleaner and there does appear to be something wedged in there next to the brake master cylinder.    You would think for a custom job like this sticking at least a 425 in there would have been a easier option. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Walter Youshock

Or they could have used a series 75 that still had the 8-6-4 engine and was far more impressive for the occasion. 
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

The Tassie Devil(le)

The engine is a Turbo-charged 368.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Scot Minesinger

The e-bay listing says 4100HT engine, and maybe that is wrong.  If it is correct top speed I agree about 12 mph, maybe 13 if it is supercharged.  Further 4k worth of car, 246 worth of story so not worth it, maybe 5k tops.  The cars speak for themselves, does not matter to me who road in them or owned them.  If you drive a crappy car no one is going to believe you (or probably care) do so because someone famous had anything to do with it.  Even a Kennedy 1960's Lincoln, to me worth the same as any other.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Walter Youshock

That long fan shroud and what looks like the rectangular 4100 fender badge screams 4100 to me. 
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#10
The video professes the engine to be a 368...I'm not so sure I buy it.

Would have made a lot more sense to SO the car with a 368 4bbl w/ THM400 which was still in production until 1984 for the Commercial Chassis - and supercharge that.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Walter Youshock

The engine definitely looks modified but I still see the 4100 style accessory belt adjusting bolts...
CLC #11959 (Life)
1957 Coupe deVille
1991 Brougham

TJ Hopland

Quote from: Walter Youshock on June 23, 2016, 06:00:07 AMThat long fan shroud and what looks like

Same thing I was looking at.   I thought the 368 had a pretty normal looking shroud.  It was because the 4100 was so much shorter they had that extended shroud to make up the space.  Same type of thing they did with the V6 optioned cars in that era.     A turbo V6 would have been an easy swap if they had started with a V6 car but that isn't what that is, the Buicks had a front distributor. 

I wonder if its a turbo?   Only thing that makes me think its not a turbo is the housing does not look all discolored from heat.   I think its not supercharged because I don't see how it was driven.   The belt drive looks stock and you can even see the pulley for the vacuum pump still in its place with its narrow belt that drove off the power steering pulley.   That would be the area you would need to be in to catch a belt to run something like a supercharger.  What ever it is appears to be behind the vacuum pump.  Pontiac had a turbo on their 4.9/301 V8's as an option for the trans am for 80 and 81.   On those it was on the other side but maybe they took one of those and flipped it around?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Gene Beaird

It's a supercharger.  Probably belt-driven, like a ProCharger.  Does not look like it has an intercooler, so the HP boost on pump gas will be limited.  The added NOS will help that some.  Interesting.  I couldn't imagine a 4100 living with much boost.  368? maybe. 

I'll bet it's very quiet. 
Gene Beaird,
1968 Calais
1979 Seville
Pearland, Texas
CLC Member No. 29873

TJ Hopland

Its not a 368.  I didn't think if it before but should have when I said its not a Buick V6.  The 368 (like the Buick) had a front distributor.  The engine in the photo doesn't have a distributor visible so its got to be in the back.   4100 was in the back so more evidence pointing to the 4100 as unlikely as it seems.   82 was the first year for the 4100 so no track record or reputation yet and it did look like a good idea on paper.  For its size, weight, and era it was a good performer at least till it fell apart.   I guess I could see why someone perhaps an aftermarket coach builder custom shop that did things like limos would have thought supercharging one was the way to go.   Coming up with a supercharger maybe made the performance acceptable and maybe didn't violate the warranties and emissions as bad as swapping in an earlier engine?   Would also be something they could in theory continue to build / produce compared to used or older engines that would likely get harder to source and support at some point.   

I wish they had better photos of the engine.  I just don't see how they are driving the thing, its set so far back and the vacuum and PS pumps look to still be in their stock locations.   

Its really interesting especially for the era it was apparently done in.   You would think it would have required re programming of the ECU which was what 1 or 2 year old technology at the time?   Even today that era EFI programming and details seems to still be a fairly well kept secret and today the hardware needed to do it is cheap.   Back then just the chips and chip burning equipment were not trivial costs and that was assuming you knew what to program.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#15
It is my suspicion that underhood photos were deliberately obscured in order to conceal the fact of what plant actually resides under the bonnet.

I saw all the telltale clues that everyone pointed out and I am 95% certain the engine is indeed an HT4100.

The presentation and detail of the car is atrocious and does not at all look as if it were some pampered pet throughout its life. The valiant suggestion in the video to the effect that the car is worth [6 figures] based upon the "replacement" cost of a new vehicle offering the same level of security is laughable.

I also submit that anyone of the stature & position in life necessitating such a level of security for their ordinary conveyance, will be well heeled enough to afford a lot better than the likes of a worn and derelict 25 year old Cadillac, let alone one with a "performance-enhanced" HT4100 which could only have further shortened the lifespan of an engine that had been on borrowed time to begin with.     
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

g27g28

It's an HT4100.  The fan shroud is the dead giveaway.   368 shroud is much shorter.  There is a lot of photo manipulation to cover the blemishes.  The air cleaner is rusty and you would think if they were going to ask that much they might vacuum the interior. 
1941 Series 62
1954 Coupe DeVille
1978 Phaeton
1980 Fleetwood

V63

The specifications from Hess as presented is from 1981 (i.e. a different car!)

A "2" was hand written over the 1981 specifications as presented...1981 offering the 368 (V864) as standard issue for the Brougham.

The engine is a HT4100 in the images and the fenders are still badged as such!

Whoever ordered that 1982 model new...had to have been horrified at its performance. They were at much greater risk waiting for AAA than driving the car!

I wonder if the claimed 'ownership' history is also for the 1981 example?

TJ Hopland

It does seem like there are a few things that don't match between the paperwork and the car.

I was just working on an 84.  Its been a long time.   For such a small engine in a big car I forgot how horrible they are to work on.  With that extra foot of space in front I don't think it would have killed them to move the engine forward a couple inches so you could have a chance to work on things.   Guess they were getting us ready for the transverse days when there would be no room anywhere.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

I see the car finished at $7,100.

Reconcile that with $6,275 that the magnificent 1980 Fleetwood just sold for which I had posted in the For Sale section of this forum.

The seller should have grabbed the $7,100 and run. 

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute