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mr wheeler you need to unlock my post about tires and point deductions

Started by wrefakis, June 25, 2016, 01:20:01 PM

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wrefakis


Scot Minesinger

Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

chrisntam

I know that in the past some folk have left the club (and opened another website), perhaps for reasons such as this?

I understand the message (I guess there is a rule about no discussion regarding judging), but the delivery was a little rough.

1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

Scot Minesinger

I'm not leaving the club, but lately and especially after this, I'm leaving the judging issues.  From now on I will just bring my car for display only and bow out of being judged.  Yes, it is because I can't win.

First I hear to win basically need an "its only original once car" so I bought a 1970 SDV with 35k miles unmolested with all original paint and top.  The vinyl top is perfect, but the paint is not.  Now I hear the car needs to be painted to win, compromising the original paint.  Then I have to worry if I paint base/clear, mirror magic or whatever.  Then after it is painted, it is likely I will hear "you should not have painted it".  I have restored all the mechanicals that typically plague low mileage cars and it is now strong mechanically.  Replaced all the rubber door seals, trunk seal and re-sealed back window - now it is weather tight.  I will just enjoy it, which is easy to do - just drive it.

The club has room for everyone, the people who enjoy their cars and keep them up real well like me, and those that are different.  They are all appreciated. 
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Maynard Krebs

I agree with Scot here.

Even if I ever had the huge car hobby budget that it takes to "win", I was never interested.   How can anyone say one car is better than another?   To me, it's a bit absurd.
But some guys can get awfully 'difficult-to-live-with' on judging / 'points' issues.   I have to ask such guys, "Do you want the original air in the original tires, too?"   

As some guys say, "My car IS my trophy."   I know:  to be male is to want to compete.   But some (subjective) things do not lend themselves to 'judging'.   Other thing do, such as golf, or maybe bowling.   Besides, nobody can win at everything.   Egos are 'touchy' things:  who really enjoys being around "legends in their own minds"?   I think that old cars should be a means of enjoyment... and sharing commonality with those who own similar vehicles.   

76eldo

I think Mr  Wheeler said its ok to discuss judging criteria just not to gripe about the results after the fact.

No one wants to keep people from knowing what they will or will not get deductions for.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

cadman56

I will always maintain & repair my vehicles with upgrades and modern parts & tires.  Who wants to drive 80 mph on bias ply tires?  If ever I show mine it will be show only.I did participate as a judge at one GN & never again.  Larry # 5820
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville (sold)
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible (Sold)
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Nobody ever said the discussion of authenticity items is off limits for discussion.



A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

wrefakis

Brian no gripe here just a very sane simple question about a car we all know that I have a great deal of experience with
I also think without the support of guys like yourself and my buddy taking the time and effort to show your cars there would be no club or judges

I have never shown a car , so the question was not for any personal issue

dochawk

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on June 26, 2016, 12:17:46 PM
I'm not leaving the club, but lately and especially after this, I'm leaving the judging issues.  From now on I will just bring my car for display only and bow out of being judged.  Yes, it is because I can't win.

First I hear to win basically need an "its only original once car" so I bought a

A couple of things here.  I indeed judged that event (not that class) for the first time, but it was more because I was local, available, and willing then anything else.  So I know something, but I'm no expert.

The "regular" judging standard is basically, "could it have been like this on the dealer floor" modified by not allowing dealer add-ons, but allowing factory-approved dealer installed options.

It's a high bar.  *shrug*.

for the "rest of us", there's a second category, "touring".  This is for cars that are actually driven, and is far more forgiving.  In fact, you can get kicked out for being "too good." :)  I think it's a point cap, but don't hold me to that.  At least one car was moved out of touring prior to judging, iirc.

And next year, there are changes.  My vague understanding is a move to a 500 point scale from 100, and the addition of modified as a judging category; it's opening up to cars that couldn't have been judged before.

Personally, I just don't get trailer queens and the like; I just don't understand a car that can't be driven because it will be worn.  That doesn't mean I won't look at one, but I'd rather see a category for cars that were driven a minimum mileage (500, 1000, whatever) to get to the show, and with nothing more than cleaning post-drive (no swapping in show parts, etc.).

And don't tell me it's impossible; I've spent a bunch of time driving Carl's '27, which he drove 2,000 miles to the GN . . . (of course, now I want a caddy of that vintage . . .:) )

hawk
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

Brett Baird

Quote from: dochawk on June 26, 2016, 06:18:47 PM
for the "rest of us", there's a second category, "touring".  This is for cars that are actually driven, and is far more forgiving

Actually, the standard is the same in Primary and Touring - is it as it was new?  The difference is that the points required for each place are lower by 10 in touring.  For example, 80 points or higher are required for first place in Touring as opposed to 90 points or higher in Primary.
B Baird
17764
'41 Fleetwood 60 S  http://bit.ly/1jwgEWm
'59 Sedan DeVille 6339 "Flat-top"  http://bit.ly/1jwgUF1

Bobby B

There is no such thing as a perfect car, so why bother.......Somebody will find something, even if it be a screw, clamp, etc. I've been done with that circuit a LONG time ago. It basically boils down to who's got the deepest pockets, the most free time, and willing to give up some of their sanity. I already own one one car that can't be driven, and guess what, it's going up for sale within the year.  No thanks, I take my cars to the Super Market, Home Depot, etc. Life's too short for that nonsense, unless you really enjoy being criticized on all your hard work. Been there, done that...... ::)
                                                                          Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

quadfins

The forum moderators would like to state that we appreciate the input and concern of forum users, especially on topics that are often controversial. Forum rules are in place so as to create the most open and welcoming environment for discussion. For the most part, this works smoothly. Considering the number of Russian-porno-spammers (as just one example) who attempt to infect our website, and looking at the prevalence of bitter flame-wars that go on so frequently around the web, we think that the level of civility and quality of discussion on our forum reflects the dignity and stature of our membership and our cars, and does credit to both.

That having been said, the moderators recognize that we are not infallible, and sometimes take actions that we later realize were unnecessary. Just as traffic laws exist to protect the safety of the majority of drivers, and just as there are still those scofflaws who feel that speed limits are enacted simply to prevent them from driving their cars in any manner they wish, we also know that there are times when the traffic cop "gets it wrong", and the ticket is dismissed.

When forum users brought the current controversy to our attention, the moderators commenced a discussion about the issue. The rule in question states  "No disparaging remarks against CLC judging results from Cadillac & LaSalle Club events".  The reason this rule was enacted, long ago, was to deter pointless and bitter accusations and recriminations that arose from disappointed show participants. That is also the reason that such specific questions are referred to the clubs chief judge, as resolutions are rarely arrived at in the context of a public discussion forum.

We moderators have concluded that, in this case, we inadvertently misinterpreted the rule, and applied it too broadly. We have agreed that, in fact, discussion of judging, possible deductions, and other concerns, prior to a judged event, should be encouraged, as we can all learn more about our cars and how to best present them in shows and other public venues.

As a result, the thread and discussion in question has been re-opened, and forum members are encouraged to resume the discussion in a positive direction.

The moderators apologize for our misinterpretation of the rule, and hope that no lasting rancor will result.
Jim Eccleston
1961 Coupe de Ville
BATILAC
Senior Crown
DeCou Driving Award x 4

76eldo

Bill

You got a retraction and an apology which I have never seen here.
I give the moderators a lot of credit for reversing the initial decision about the thread.

Of course your question is valid.

I have seen a set of double striped bias ply tires on another club members 70 Eldo but I don't know when he bought them.

Personally I would like to see radials allowed providing the whitewall width is what the cars came with when new.

Any of radial with a 3/4 inch whitewall just won't cut it on a 70 regardless of being judged or not.

As far as judging and the current point system I think it's fair and they have made positive changes in recent years.  The radial issue should be resolved though one way or the other.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

quadfins

So what do we do when two otherwise equally scoring cars are on the field, and one has radials, and the other has the correct bias plies?

Well, then, we say, was the car with radials DRIVEN, or trailered?

Then, that opens up a can of worms about trailered vs driven cars... Do we provide a certain points handicap for a driven car? If so, upon what formula- some certain number of points added per mile driven? Then, can a heavily modified car, driven a long distance, achieve more points than a correct original car from a closer location? And then, and then, and then.

The fact is, there is no way to make everyone happy, as we all have our own experiences, ideas, and criteria. Presumably, that is why the club has decided on "factory-correct" for primary and senior classes, as that is at least more determinate.

In addition, there are other categories for original survivor cars, for driven (touring) cars, and now, for modifieds. This should provide a category for everyone who wants to have a car judged.

If someone can come up with a better plan, that would address all of the possible grievances, I'm sure the judging committee would have open ears.

And, if there are any doubters, I drove my '61 from Virginia to:

Cherry Hill  NJ
St. Augustine   FL
Boston   MA
Lake George   NY
Milwaukee   WI

And have 4 De Cou driving awards.

All on bias ply tires.

It can be done

Jim
Jim Eccleston
1961 Coupe de Ville
BATILAC
Senior Crown
DeCou Driving Award x 4

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: johnregrus on June 26, 2016, 06:38:37 PM
Hello Eric,

Try opening a discussion thread about the of authenticity of an item that was on a car judged and see what happens. It will be deemed "off limits" in no time.

It is only actual post-judging results that are not open to discussion.

Points of authenticity and judging deductions are otherwise discussed here all the time.   
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

wrefakis

Here is the issue.
I agree that no disparaging remarks should be tolerated
I have nothing but 35 years good will towards the club and all the great guys I have met, and the good times I have had at shows.

While talking to a friend and 40+ year member about a year and model that I dare say I am the textbook on, he mentioned that HE had won at the national, but they deducted points for the tires.

I then asked a sane respectful question and had a house dropped on me.
It just leaves a bad taste, this is my hobby and should be fun.

No hard feelings, I do not show cars, but for the members that do, I think a question like this is acceptable

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Bill...were the tires the same repros that Scot shown on the other thread?
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

wrefakis


Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

See if you can find out - or even better post a picture. 

I am curious about this question now.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute