Which timing set for '72 Eldorado (and anything else while I do water pump?)

[dochawk]

My clutch fan has arrived, and my water pump is on a truck for delivery somewhere in town at this moment.

I want to replace the timing set while I"m in there and have these off but which set to use? 

Rockajuto offers Cloyes, Engine Tech and Sealed Power.  NO country on Engine tech so I assume it's Chines junk.

Napa ha its own that I can have today for about the same price.

O'Reilly's has a Cloyes "true" set for three times as much, and I see other "true" listings out there.  What in the world does this mean?

Delco apparently no longer makes them.

My understanding is that the OEM was coated with Nylon (teflon?) to reduce noise; is that correct?   If so, none seem to claim to do that.

I'm really not concerned about the 3:1 price difference if it's a better part.

So which should I be using?

And aside from pulling the radiator and having it inspected, is there anything else I should be doing (besides belts & hoses) while I'm this far in?

Mine was a California model, if that makes a difference.

Thanks

hawk

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Richard,
Timing set replacement on a 72 Eldo with the motor in place is not impossible, but it is difficult.  The timing cover has a channel that the gasket at the front lip of the oil pan sets in, so the timing cover cannot come straight out on the dowel pins set into the block but must be "finagled" (a technical term) off.  This subject has been discussed countless times so I would recommend you search for it here and see what is involved.  I say not impossible, but I did it once and I don't think i would do it again (that way with the motor in place).
Cloyes or sealed power have proven to stand up for a stock motor but when I looked at the prices I feel sure both are "fabrique a Cin".
Now for the options.  I would suggest that since the cam gears with the Nylon coating on the teeth tend to disintegrate with age and there is the possibility that yours has been changed already, that before you pull everything apart you pull the distributor and the fuel pump.  This will give you access to check the chain for slack and look at the cam gear.  You might be surprised.
Greg Surfas

[dochawk]

Gosh, I already replaced the fuel pump . . . putting *that* pack on cost me flesh . . . it's like it was designed to prevent a decent angle or space for a socket.

When you say "surprised," do you mean that if it's tight I don't need to change it, or . . ..

Rock Auto has all here for $28-$38, Napa has their own for $38, and the "true" sets seem to be about $80.

Thanks

hawk

[bcroe]

Get a Cloyes true roller from somebody.  Yes its a bear on a Cad or
Olds, FWD is the worst.  The FWD Olds needs an engine/trans support
while the front cover is off; maybe not for the Cad.  It IS POSSIBLE,
I have done QUITE A FEW; its NECESSARY maintenance. 

I have also built the trans and brake system on my 5 cars.  Bruce Roe

[dochawk]

But what does "true roller" mean?

Is it a trade name, or an alignment issue, or . . .?

And is it nylon coated, or otherwise quiet?

thanks

hawk

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Yes,
If the chain is relatively snug and you don't see a yellow Nylon coating (or a bunch of very sharp teeth which would be the cam gear under the Nylon) you can skip the joy of this task for now.
In regards to pulling the fuel pump, Suggest removing the three bolts holding the PS Bracket and moving the PS pump out of the way.  If you find the timing set needs to be replaced you will have to R&R the fuel pump anyhow.
Greg Surfas

[dochawk]

I'm missing something here . . . wouldn't the nylon coating mean that it was still "on", instead of having been worn off?

And will the new chain (assuming I need one) have nylon coating?  If not will it be noisier?

thanks

hawk

[TJ Hopland]

If its got the nylon coating chances are good its original and at this age even if its there now its not going to last.

I have never heard anyone say they have heard any difference going from the nylon to an all metal one.    I have done it on several engines and never noticed any difference.

The 'true roller' chain set looks like a bicycle / motorcycle chain.    A standard chain is usually called Morse or Link Belt.    For a stock engine the link belt is fine as long as its a quality brand like Cloyes.

[Scot Minesinger]

I replaced the timing chain on a 1972 Eldorado without removing the oil pan or engine from car.

It was not that bad.  The radiator was out of the car along with condenser, so it was fairly easy.  You have to drive two pins into the block and catch them to remove front cover, then re-install them when ready to put car back together.  With radiator in place, there is not as much room to drive the pins into the block (hammer swing). 

However on a RWD car have replaced timing chain without removing radiator, so it is possible to do.

The timing set includes a cam sprocket, the chain and the crankshaft drive gear.  The cam sprocket is the weak line and why everyone writes that the chain needs to be replaced, it is made of nylon coated aluminum.  The nylon coating fails and little pieces of it go into the oil pan.  If the pieces are small enough, the oil pan pick up screen may not be fine enough to prevent sucking a small piece into the oil pump and causing an oil pump failure.  If you examine the sprocket and see missing pieces of nylon, you will need to drop the pan.  I have done this job 4 times and never saw any missing pieces of nylon, however many other contributors to this forum have seen this problem.

I changed a 1970 472 with 104k miles, a 1970 472 with 35k miles, a 1972 500 w/80k miles, and a 1976 RWD 500 with 30k miles.  The 1976 chain itself was stretched major, and that needed replacement, although the sprocket look fine.  All four were done only for precaution.  The 35k miles 1970 Cadillac really did not need the job done, but glad I did it anyway - peace of mind.

[bcroe]

You need to drain the coolant when the water pump comes out anyway, so
then its trivial on most cars to remove the radiator.  I have never removed the
condenser to make more room.  Managed without removing those pins, but
might try Scots method next time. 

I have never heard any sound from a replacement all metal timing set.  I
am convinced the plastic/nylon was a combination of cost reduction, and 
a design assuring you would HAVE to buy a new car some day.  Bruce Roe

[TJ Hopland]

I am convinced the plastic/nylon was a combination of cost reduction, and 
a design assuring you would HAVE to buy a new car some day.

Ya kinda wonder if there could be something to that statement.

[Scot Minesinger]

That is true, absolutely no noise change in noise after changing out all four timing sets, probably was planned obsolescence for the CA cars that do not rust.

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

For those of us old enough to remember and for those so old they have forgotten, Nylon was the "magic" material in it's day.  It allowed the cam gear to operated with less oil and less friction than a cast gear.  That is the reason for it's use.  It was quite more expensive than a straight cast iron gear which is why you only saw them on Cadillacs (I believe).  There were no long term studies in the application's durability, and when problems began showing up they eliminated it.
Sorry, no conspiracies here about planned obsolescence.
Greg Surfas

[bcroe]

For those of us old enough to remember and for those so old they have forgotten, Nylon was the "magic" material in it's day.  It allowed the cam gear to operated with less oil and less friction than a cast gear.  That is the reason for it's use.  It was quite more expensive than a straight cast iron gear which is why you only saw them on Cadillacs (I believe).  There were no long term studies in the application's durability, and when problems began showing up they eliminated it.  Sorry, no conspiracies here about planned obsolescence. Greg Surfas 

The nylon gear was in every Olds I have owned (many), certainly not a Cad exclusive. 
I haven't surveyed all branches.  The Olds has an oil nozzle pointing right at the
timing set, no lube problem.  I certainly don't believe that a sprocket popped ready
from a mold, cost more than a sprocket of which every iron tooth had to be
individually machined.  Decades of production doesn't sound like quick elimination
to me; I think they got what they wanted.  Sorry, not convinced at all.  Bruce Roe

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Bruce,
I have no desire to try and convince anyone about anything.
Greg Surfas