R12

Started by fishnjim, October 17, 2016, 09:04:33 AM

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fishnjim

Something's amiss.   After they made everybody change over to 134a from R12, et al. they're now banning 134a and pushing HFOs.   But China still makes and sells R12 and 134a?   Sounds "fishy" to me, transferring wealth or helping the environment?   Maybe we'll have to get our "black market" 134a from China too?
The environmental impact of using HFOs is not well known except it's less stable, catches fire, and has a low GWP.   So standby...They're running out of refrigerant candidates.   I have some arm powered fans, I'd like to sell...Or we'll be back to window side Thermador, Classic aire, or Star evaporative air coolers.

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Jim,
China also has a production decline/terminate schedule.  Since they are essentially the only current producer of HFO-1234yf I really can't see them continuing to produce R-134a when HFO-1234yf sells in 10 pound "drums" for $1100.00.
Incidentally, just got back from Japan where I was reminded of the initial argument against R134a. At every machinery room where r-134a was used the machine room door was placarded with a warning of it's presence.  Reminded me that originally studies that the refrigerant companies tried to suppress and shout over was that R-134a caused testicular cancer in laboratory animals.  The Japanese have taken these warnings seriously, and shifted, almost in all applications to small, unitized systems using R-22.
Greg Surfas   
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

savemy67

Hello all,

A few days ago. most of the World's nations, at a meeting in Kigali, Rwanda, agreed to a legally binding ban on hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs).  From the little refrigerant chemistry I know, I think that R134a, R12, R22, and R401a, etc. are either HFCs or HCFCs (Hydrochlorofluorocarbons), so I suspect that an entirely new (or old) substance will be used as a refrigerant in the future.

I haven't read the agreement framework, so I don't know the details as to time frames, exemptions, or enforcement.  I do recall that ammonia and propane have been used as refrigerants, and that neither is an HFC or HCFC, although propane is a hydrocarbon.

Greg - any thoughts on what would make a good HFC or HCFC substitute refrigerant in general, and how it might be applied to automotive A/C systems in particular?

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Scot Minesinger

Well nothing is ever certain, but if r134 starts to become difficult or expensive to get (likely to be a reality), I will switch to r12 for my classics. 

My daily driver cars that operate on r134, will all be gone in a couple years and so the only r134 cars remaining will be my classics.  May convert them back over to r12 eventually.  Then will buy the r12 devoted refrigeration machine. 

It seems unlikely that the next generation of refrigerants are going to be any good for our old cars.  With the advent of electric cars likely to be our inescapable future, the sale of gasoline may be a thing of the past in 20 or 30 years - who knows?  That would be a devastating blow to the hobby.

Right now r134 is plentiful and cheap.  Right now gasoline is sold.  Until things change a little, will keep going on at present course.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Christopher,
R-12 (reclaimed/recycled) is and will be available for at least 15 years into the future.  When everything else is figured such as flushing, changes in TX valves, POA's, condensers, lubricants, controls considered necessary to change from 12 to 134a the $50.00 or so 12 is going for, and will probably continue to go for, for quite a while does not seem out of touch.
In regards to alternates, my favorite was R-414b, but since it contains a bit of the now going extinct R-22, it is just about as costly as 12.
The current refrigerant now being used in most cars is HFO-1234yf.  It is quite pricey at $110.00 per pound in 10 pound drums and requiring a sizeable investment in equipment to be able to use it (I have heard the number $4,500 for the requisite equipment).
I am currently working on a feasibility study of using HFO-1234yf in a vehicle using an A-6 compressor and stock appearing refrigeration components that would be required to utilize this refrigerant in a correctly appearing vehicle for those that must adhere to authenticity but want AC.
As more is learned I will share this information.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Scot Minesinger

Greg,

It would be most beneficial to find how the new refrigerant works with A6 compressors, that will be great when you find out how it works.  The cost for me to get into R134 was $4,500.  In a few years will have to decide to invest $4,500 in an r12 devoted machine or the new stuff, and your findings will be helpful.  The $4,500 is quickly recovered, as I have gone thru 250lbs of r134, at say an average of 2.5 lbs per car, that is 100 of them. 
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Just noticed.  That number for HFO-1234yf equipment I posted is missing a number.  That number is a 1.  Thhe cost should read $14,500.00.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

savemy67

Hello all,

Fishnjim's point - "The environmental impact of using HFOs is not well known except it's less stable, catches fire, and has a low GWP.   So standby..." - raises the issue of why society continues to engineer ever more complex solutions to seemingly intractable problems.  Maybe we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I like A/C as much as the next person, but I can live without it.  At the City of Rockville (MD) classic car show this past Saturday, B. Harrison's beautiful '59 series 62 was on display.  The "entry level" Cadillac has no A/C, but I would be happy to drive down the highway in that car whatever the weather.

Despite the foregoing, I applaud Greg's research into the HFO A6 possibility.  This type of effort keeps the hobby going, and may help provide more choices for future restorations.  I have been thinking along similar lines, although with fuel, not A/C.  I would like to one day have my '67 running on hydrogen (vanity plate HNDNBRG - just for fun).  I am not a fan of electric cars - again, I think it is an overly complex solution to the elimination of gasoline.  Our cars will run fine today on propane, but propane pollutes, hence hydrogen.

In 1977 I bought Black and Decker's first generation cordless electric drill.  Battery packs were $75 each (in 1977).  Ni-Cad they were, but whether Ni-Cad, Ni-Hydride, or Li-Ion, all batteries will eventually fail and be disposed.  Why replace one problem with another?

Just a few musings.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher WInter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Christopher,
You re on the right track with Hydrogen (H2). BMW had a test fleet of 6 of them in operaqtion in 1985.  The engines were essentially gasoline motors with modified injection systems and a liquid H2 tank instead of a gasoline one.  The issues then as now were the lack of refueling stations (I saw many of them during my recent trip to Japan), and the problem of a storage tank. The tank issue is just about solved.  At the rate we are adding CO2 to the air the seemingly natural solution would be to liberate H2 by electrolysis and release the liberated O2 into the atmosphere.
When I bought my 66 in 1992 my thoughts were to convert it to CNG and then when H2 refueling was a reality, convert again. "Low" cost of gasoline keeps H2 out of play.  Places like (again) Japan where current prices are over $4.50 per gallon are taking this alternative seriously.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

fishnjim

Glad I got some thinking going.   I'm more concerned we're(US and others) getting disadvantaged by these agreements.   To let some use and make and others not, is not an even playing field.  Once the capacity is gone, it's too late.   These agreements have done little but cause instability in the market, as you noticed with the pricing.   Not proven they do anything for the environment.   The ozone hole is closing/ed, but they weren't sure why it was opening.  The Cl: hypothesis was shown but not verified atmospherically to my knowledge.   The US Govt needs to look and think where they're going instead of pushing agendas.  But who does that these days; tweet, tweet, facebook this, text that.
I was involved in refrigerant development for a few years, and made alot of blends through my group.   There's other uses so they can't just abandon them all.   We had 2 134a plants and put a third plant in china and then price dropped alot.  ~$10 =>~$4   The problem is not the use of refrigerants but when you multiply it by the numbers of users/units, the magnitude has impact.
Automotive should adapt the refrigerator model, hermetically sealed.  It could be done with a simple magnetic coupling on the driver.
aside:
I've looked at conversion to CNG(my diesel) and H2(generally).   CNG is a good fuel but the conversion is still a bit pricey for the tanks and you have to have a refueling nearby or dual fuel it.   No real DOT/NHSA standards.   DOT covers the tank but after that it's wild west...  The diesel price dropped now, so it's not even close to any payback.
In Brazil they trifuel; gas, ethanol, CNG   And the US car makers supply the vehicles, so we're put in a pickle here by the Govt and oil companies.   
H2 storage is and will be the problem.   This has been researched since I was in grade school and no solution in 50+ years.   Highly flamamble 2%LEL to 96%UEL.   It takes more energy to make than it produces so it's an energy loser. (Just like EVs.)   It's too light to keep contained and doesn't liquify at any reasonable temperature and pressures.   There's no worse element on the periodic chart.
ps: I believe Honeywell makes 1234yf in the states.   They were in cahoots with Dupont, but not sure of the current status of that arrangement.   Initially Mercedes rejected 1234 for flammability.  But US makers adopted.   I'm retired, not sure where this is now.   I'll have to read up.   
The other non-halogenated refrigerants all pose safety issues.   Ammonia is good, and in wide use for food storage, but if you get a leak... Fire and toxicity hazard.   Anything less than 4 carbons is dangerous in handling.   CO2 is safe but no one seems interested.  You have to be careful on expansion it doesn't make solid.

Scot Minesinger

J Bozin,

Every enthusiast can probably buy and store enough refrigerant for their cars for the rest of their lives.  My Cadillacs take 4 lbs of r12 (have converted them to r134), so probably three 30lbs tanks will last me until I sell the cars for sure, an investment of less than $400.  Although R12 is more money, probably enough of it can be bought now and certainly r134 could be.  We read things are going to change (for two years now), but until they start to, not going to do too much. 
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

chrisntam

Quote from: fishnjim on October 18, 2016, 04:07:27 PM
Glad I got some thinking going.   I'm more concerned we're(US and others) getting disadvantaged by these agreements.   To let some use and make and others not, is not an even playing field.  Once the capacity is gone, it's too late.   These agreements have done little but cause instability in the market, as you noticed with the pricing.   
.....snip....

One of the presidential candidates mentioned this.

I agree, whoever is doing the deals is doing a bad deal for us.
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

I guess someone should ask the folks in Florida or the Carolinas about the seriousness of changing weather patterns and extremes, and perhaps also read the agreements themselves. Perhaps we should also put the lead back in gasoline or discontinue the inclusion of seat belts in vehicles  Guys the world is continuing to change and even if those changes might inconvenience a few of us we are all riding on the same planet.
The talk about one sided deals can be verified (or actually refuted) by reading the agreements and seeing that all countries are on the same path toward eliminating things that harm all of us and it takes the less advanced and physically much larger ones a little longer to react.
This is not a political rant because this forum is absolutely no place for sex, religion or politics.

That said, my initial delving into the HFO-1234yf in place of R-12 in a system using an A6 compressor and all the refrigeration components (TXV, POA, VIR, etc.) necessary to retain a stock appearance looks promising.  Seems like with the proper components (TXV, etc.) retaining the stock condenser and evaporator we take quite a bit less of a hit than the 20(+) % we take when switching to R-134a.
More will be revealed when I put a system in operation.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

The Tassie Devil(le)

If you want to witness the climate changing, come down here to Tasmania.   No matter what the weather is, you will be wearing a hat to keep the piercing sun from your heads.

I could walk around Europe, USA, and Northern Australia with my hat off in 100 F temperatures, but even at 70 F down here, the hat has to be on.

The Ozone Layer is seriously depleting, and by the time the Northern Hemisphere notices it, it will be too late.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Scot Minesinger

It is encouraging to read Greg's words about an A6 compressor being possibly workable with the next newest refrigerant.  Hopefully this happens and this new refrigerant stays in the market for a while.  R12 was in Cadillacs from 1953 thru 1993 (four decades), and r134 from 1994 thru say 2014 (thereabouts - almost two decades).  Sounds like best thing to do is wait.

Let's keep all the other unrelated discussions out of this forum please.  We sometimes don't agree on the cars we all enjoy, imagine how bad it would be if we discussed other potentially argument creating topics P, R, S and etc.  Enjoying my 1970 Cadillacs today!
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

R-12 was first used in 1935 and it was intended to replace Methyl Chloride which has almost identical refrigerating properties, but as is implicit in the name is some nasty stuff.  Packard had its AC debut in 1939.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Maynard Krebs

Greg (I think) mentioned a term, "non-halogenated".

This causes me to remember when "halon" fire extinguishers were sold.. and marketed toward old car owners, claiming that it left no mess, like other types.

Methinks that because I haven't heard of this type of extinguisher for sale in a very long time, "the gov't" must have banned 'em.   I don't know.   Does anyone here?

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Halon is on the same hit list as R-12.  As far as fire extinguishers go it is still used for aircraft.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

savemy67

Hello Gerald,

Halon is a number of chemical fire suppressants that utilize some form of one or more of the Halogens - fluorine, chlorine, bromine, iodine, and astatine.  The first two - fluorine and chlorine - are major components in HFCs and HCFCs (refrigerants), thus the banning of Halon in all but a few unique circumstances.


Hello fishnjim,

I have been in touch with a bloke from Australia who converted his early 60s Cadillac to CNG for a couple hundred dollars.  Apparently, the Australian government had a subsidy program of which he took advantage.  Since governments here in the U.S. are subsidizing solar PV systems, it is probable that at some point in time a similar subsidy may be available for the conversion of gasoline engines.  I would argue that the energy (electricity) needed to split water into H2 and O can come from the sun, wind, or geothermal sources. This should economically offset the energy input/output relationship.

If green house gasses are detrimental as a function of the percentage they occupy in the atmosphere, I would think that increasing the proportion of O and N(itrogen), so that the planet's atmosphere returns to the composition it had in 1900, might be something to consider.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop