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Looks like I may have found my lifter "tick"

Started by Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373, November 11, 2016, 09:44:05 PM

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Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

As some of you may know I have had a valve tick on a fairly new rebuild. The tick seemed to move from 1 bank to another, front to back, etc. I have replaced the oil pump along with various other "fixes" that haven't worked.
Well, today I tried something new. I ran it until she was hot (when the tick is more pronounced) and pulled a valve cover.
I put pressure on each rocker to see if I was able to quiet it down which would hopefully show me where the problem was.
Well, the problem, today, happened to be in #2's intake, but it wasn't a lifter.
The rocker rotated about 20-25 degrees---- From about 11:45 to 12:15 give or take perpendicular to its intended 'rock.' When I held the rocker steady, the noise went away. It appears the rockers and their mounts are a loose fit. Either the holes are too big, or the rocker pedestals are too small. The rockers and pedestals are new so I discount wear. Either the parts are mismatched, or they were just made wrong (offshore probably).
Are there bushings that may be missing? Does anyone happen to have measurements of the pedestals (male) or the socket (female) part of the rocker?
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Bobby B

Jeff,
Hi. Year/Engine?  ???  ???
                                Bobby
                           
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

Yah, I guess that would help, sorry.
70 DeVille, 472.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

The Tassie Devil(le)

Boy, if it was that bad, it is a wonder that nothing broke.

Wonder how much metal molecules are caught up in the filter from the part wearing itself away?

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

chrisntam

Glad you are narrowing it down! 

Unfortunately, I am unable to help on this one,  I went with aftermarket rocker shafts on my build and abandoned all my old rocker related parts to MTS, not knowing they could be of use to others here.   Didn't really pay attention to the factory valve train.

If it helps at all, (and I know it doesn't) I was driving mine last weekend and while driving, I was smelling coolant.  When I got home, water overflowed the coolant tank (I can't spell resovioir).  Temp gauge didn't really indicate an issue, so I'll have to figure that out.....

It's always something.
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

cadman56

Was the finger of the spring retainer broken or bent?  Larry
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville (sold)
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible (Sold)
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Bobby B

Quote from: chrisntam on November 11, 2016, 11:25:24 PM
If it helps at all, (and I know it doesn't) I was driving mine last weekend and while driving, I was smelling coolant.  When I got home, water overflowed the coolant tank (I can't spell resovioir).  Temp gauge didn't really indicate an issue, so I'll have to figure that out.....
It's always something.

Check your  thermostat...
                               Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

The retainer clips are fine....they were new too.
I don't think this is a wear issue as it has been noisy from the get go. I think they were bad from the start and I am just finding it now.

Christam, it doesnt make me feel better, but thanks. We are all in this together!!

Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

cadillacmike68

I've had a tick in my 1968 for years. Time to take off the valve covers, i guess......
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Scot Minesinger

Jeff,

Sure reads like that is it all right - good job finding it.

Replacement rocker arms are junk!  If you look at a good used one, and a new one just looking at the better quality manufacture you will see the difference.  Also, it is unlikely that the metallurgy is as good as original.  Fortunately for me, another person on this forum pointed this out to me and I ordered a new one and compared it to a used and wow!

There are no bushings. 

You wrote that the "T" mounts were new too, and did not even know reproductions were made, but they are probably junk as well.  These may be original, try and be sure they are or not.

To solve your problem call MTS in CA and they will sell you 16 good used rocker arms.  They keep them in good supply.  Also if the "T" standards are new or worn, replace them with good used (8 required).  I would buy 18 rocker arms and 9 "T" stands just in case.  Replace them all now over the winter on a Saturday afternoon, and enjoy!

Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

I actually have the originals from the rebuild (I was not able to get all the old parts but I was able to gather them). That is why I was wondering what the limits are for the rockers and the pedistals. They only have 50k on them so they are probably what I would get if I bought a used set.
I will mic them and see what's what and go from there.
Sure have chased a lot of ghosts on this darn tick.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Scot Minesinger

Jeff,

I would still buy at least one good rocker arm and one good T stand from MTS to compare against original pieces you have.  That way you know what a good one is supposed to be dimensionally.

Again, great job finding this!
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

savemy67

Hello Jeff,

My '67's 429 was the first year for the pedestal mount valve rocker arms.  I think the 472/500 used the same configuration, although I don't know if the dimensions are the same.  I am not clear on what the position of your rocker arm is relative to the pedestal.  A photo might help.

On a '67, the rocker is perpendicular to the arm of the pedestal when viewed from above (plan view).  The pedestal arm acts as a fulcrum for the rocker.  One end of the rocker contacts the valve stem tip, and the other end of the rocker contacts the pushrod.  The travel of the pushrod plunger should be enough to take up any slack due to a small difference in the size or radius of the pedestal arm.  In other words, there is always constant upward pressure on the pushrod end of the valve rocker arm forcing contact between the rocker and the pedestal.  If your new parts were slightly different in size, the rocker should still make contact with the pedestal arm.

If the pedestal mounting bolt is tightened correctly, and your rocker is still loose on the pedestal arm, you may want to compare pushrods to see that they are all the same length, and you may want to check the lift at each pushrod to verify that all the lifters are functioning properly.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

Yes, correct. I don't know if they are the same, but they sound the same. The rocker arm is indeed perpendicular to the pedestal. There seems to be preload on the rocker.
Now, take that rocker arm and twist it so that it is no longer perpendicular but off 5-10 degrees. It would twist this way if the pedestal post was too narrow or the receiving end of the rocker was oversized. There will always be a bit of rotational movement but mine appears excessive. The tick I hear is the rocker twisting to the right/left to its limit. When I hold the rocker such that it can't rotate, the sound goes away.
I should have taken pictures of the rocker at its limit but I didn't.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Scot Minesinger

I'm sure you will have this fixed soon, keep us posted.  Probably the push rods are new too, and make sure that the replacement rocker arms and "T" stands (probably used) are exact same dimension so that push rods will be correct too, or get a set of good used pushrods too.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

The Tassie Devil(le)

Am I missing something here, but don't the T Stands have a spring steel "framework" locating them, incorporating a clip on the end of each "shaft" holding the Rocker arms in place?

From what is described, the amount of sideways movement would require the replacement of both the stand and arm, as one, or the other will be worn out, and affecting the mating part.

The only thing that can cause a rocker to move out of its' engineered part of movement, it bad parts.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Scot Minesinger

Bruce,

The rocker arms and tees are same as your 72 Cadillac.  Evidently these are replacements and likely poor metalurgy and machining.  I looked at a replacement rocker arm purchased compared to good used and the difference is night and day in terms of quality way better on the used.  Probably wear on both components as you stated.  Recommend replacing them all for the entire engine.  Push rods may not match and need to be replaced too, not sure.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

savemy67

Hello Bruce,

The attached photos show the retainer which is bolted between the head and the pedestal.  One retainer accommodates two pedestals/four rockers.  In photo 4467 you can just make out a little protrusion near the inside top of the upright on the right end of the retainer.  This little bump locates the corresponding dimple on the rocker arm, which is just visible under the crescent shape cut-out on the left rocker in photo 4467.  There are no clips per se.

Jeff - I'll assume your retainers are installed correctly.  Another thing to check is that the pedestals are oriented properly.  This may not apply to the 472, but on the 429 the pedestals are stamped I (intake) and E (exhaust) because the mounting hole in the pedestal is not centered, so the pedestals are not fully interchangeable.

If you think the issue is confined to one rocker or pedestal, try swapping the suspect rocker with an apparent good rocker and see if the noise follows the rocker or stays with the pedestal.  If you are able to rotate the rocker 5 - 10 degrees, relative to a plane that goes through the center-line of the rocker from pushrod end to valve stem end, and you have pre-load on the rocker from the lifter/pushrod (you should not be able to rotate the pushrod by hand), then you most likely have some defective or incorrect rockers/pedestals.  Does the pushrod seem to fit properly in the end of the rocker?  Does the valve stem end of the rocker appear to make proper contact with the valve stem tip?

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher WInter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

The pedestals are marked with either an O or a C on 1 arm only (I can't tell what the letter is). The forward 2 aim toward the front of the engine and the rear 2 aim toward the rear. I admit I have not looked at this in the book yet to see how they are supposed to be oriented.

My old pedistals arms are all (but 1) .806" wide and the rocker openings range from .825" to.834" wide----- these are my old ones with about 50k on them

My wife told me that I want to spend next weekend putting up lights so it will probably be Thanksgiving weekend before I have a chance to pull the noisy ones and see what those measure.
I will post my findings.
It sure seems like a weak design having only 1 side of the rocker doing all the work of keeping it straight.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Scot Minesinger

Jeff, this should help; a 1970 not ticking engine with original T stands and rocker arms.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty