Buying from dealer vs. private seller...

[J.C.]

Hi, Guys,

Today I found three '79 Fleetwood Broughams online, all with 38,000-46,000 miles (claimed).  One was green exterior/white interior from a private seller for $6,900; one was silver/gray from a private seller for about $8,000; and one was white/white from a dealer for $9,995.

How much of a markup should we reasonably expect to have to pay buying from a dealer?  And it seems like dealers are so much morse skillful at lying and sprucing-up dogs and photographing them to make them look great, whereas private sellers seem to be less sophisticated and easier to catch when they're fudging, am I right?

J.C.

[David Greenburg]

I would say you are absolutely right.  Dealers are experts at putting lipstick on a pig. And lying. From a private party, even someone like me who who is a pretty good detailer, you're going to get the old girl without much makeup on. And you're probably going to more easily able to judge their "truthiness."  I traded a '59 to a dealer a few years ago, and was shocked by what he turned around and put on eBay.  It's amazing what some lipstick and flagrant lies can do. 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

It is extremely difficult to compare the three vehicles with their prices.

Firstly, the condition of each is most important.

Secondly, a Dealer would be providing some form of Warranty, I would suggest, as being a commercial dealer, he would be required by law to have some form of insurance to cover himself, and the buyer.

Thirdly, How does one know how much profit anyone is making on a sale.   The Dealer may actually be making a loss, as he might really need to move the car, whereas the Private sellers could be making huge profits form cars they obtained for a mere pittance.

One should not be questioning how much one should make from a sale, but bearing in mind, Dealers will probably accept trade-ins and it is here that they make money.   Plus, a dealer has to make a living, and also has to pay taxes on his tradings.   The Private Sellers won't have these overheads.

Lastly, it all comes down to what each vehicle is worth, to you.   The buyer.

Bruce.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Plus, I wouldn't buy any car online without either inspecting it myself, or having it inspected by a reputable person.

Bruce.

[J.C.]

Plus, I wouldn't buy any car online without either inspecting it myself, or having it inspected by a reputable person.

Bruce.

I absolutely agree!  This goes almost without saying.  Thanks for your insights.

[76eldo]

I mainly purchase cars from private sellers and avoid classic car dealers.  I have purchased some cars from classic dealers and they are generally overstated and have misleading or missing information from their ads or ebay listings.  Don't forget, I have my own cars, and I buy and inspect a lot of cars for other people so I am generally looking at 2-6 cars per month for buyers.  That's not a huge number, but you get to see a lot and I have a system for going over the cars.

I have sold 4 cars in the last three months for other people.  I do a large format ebay listing with the photos hosted on my own server space so that they display full screen on the ebay listing.

I document the cars completely with photos of just about any area and answer almost every question with a photo.  These 4 cars were purchased on ebay with money wired to either me or the seller with NO personal inspection of any kind.  All 4 buyers were very happy with their vehicles.

I am a big advocate of having any potential long distance car purchase inspected by someone and taking their own set of photos.  It's worth the cost to have an objective third party inspect and drive the car.  If the seller is evasive and not agreeable to that then there is something wrong.

While private sellers may lack the expertise to disguise a problem with the car, they may also lack the expertise to give you the whole story on the car either by just being uninformed, like in an estate sale, or by being downright devious.

Approach the situation with caution. 

Brian

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

There are no hard and fast rules where it comes to getting the most for the money and as Bruce points out the amount of "profit" in a vehicle is not only impossible to determine, but entirely irrelevant.  Would it make you any happier buying a car because the seller is losing money? No. Does the fact that someone losing money make it a better deal? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

As a buyer your only concern is finding the best car for best price. Period.  So forget all about what someone's profit may or may not be and concentrate on finding the best car that you can afford - regardless of who the selling party is.

As always, caveat emptor! And that applies equally - both to private party and dealer retail.

[76eldo]

Let me add that there are exceptions and I know that there are some very reputable used and classic car dealers out there.

Eric D being one of them.

Price can also fluctuate greatly due to the fact that some car dealers acquire cars in groups and may be able to "steal" some cars and if they get them cheap, they can sell them cheap.  Also, at times, a great deal of work goes into making a car right and in condition that makes it attractive to a buyer.

I recently bought a 1965 Corvette convertible that was parked in 1999 with 57,000 miles on it.  Some cars need more than others when you are recommissioning a car that has been sitting.  If I did less to the car I could ask less money.

EVERY Used Car is an individual and needs to be evaluated by the buyer.  If it really turns you on and is a rare car or just something you really want, you may be apt to spend a little more.

Brian

[Scot Minesinger]

All really great advice and insights.

I favor buying the classic cars from an individual over a dealer and of course there are exceptions. 

Ideally you buy from the owner who spared his car nothing, getting too old to enjoy it (and ha not let it go), and you buy for a good price because it is a 4 door, beige, low options, and etc.

Keep at it.

[chrisntam]

For me, it didn't matter.  Looked for about 2 years, a dealer in Florida (not the noted Florida dealer) had the car I wanted.  As always, do your due diligence and check the car out.  I got on a plane (from Dallas) and looked at it.  It was in my garage in about a month.  Little to no rust and nicely optioned is what did it for me.

[76eldo]

That's the key. He got on a plane and checked it out personally.

So many people want to buy cars but will not do this critical part.

Brian

[Barry M Wheeler #2189]

If the green one with white interior is in northern Indiana, I went and looked at it several years ago. Good twenty, no fifty foot car. Please note: "several years ago" and "fifty foot." (The price is about what he was asking.) We can't leave negative comments but you should be able to read between the lines... The body was great.

[TJ Hopland]

One thing I have noticed at dealers is the price will often drop after a period of time.    I had stopped at a dealer to look at a Cadillac I saw from the road.   The wife saw a Mustang she liked.   It was Sunday so they were closed and it was before you could really go online on your phone so we headed home and checked their website.   Mustang was listed at like $5k which was way too much for its apparent condition.   I called on Monday to ask about the Cad which just wasn't right for me and mentioned the Mustang.   The guy didn't even seem to remember he had it and threw out $3k.   I came out and looked at it and I think we got it for like $1700.    Apparently they had had it for almost 3 years and just wanted to get rid of it.   The place had a little of everything so it wasn't like he mostly sold Cads and didn't have people looking at Mustangs.   I was looking at just the outside stuff,  could not afford to even look at the stuff he had inside.

I think a lot of those places do end up selling cars at a loss but stay in biz because they do get enough 'home runs'.   Its better to have say 10K in the pocket that can go to another car than 12K tied up on the lot that no one seems to want.

[J.C.]

If the green one with white interior is in northern Indiana, I went and looked at it several years ago. Good twenty, no fifty foot car. Please note: "several years ago" and "fifty foot." (The price is about what he was asking.) We can't leave negative comments but you should be able to read between the lines... The body was great.

Yep, that's one of 'em I mentioned.  The seller listed the car on several websites through some sort of online consignment company - I called them and got his number.  When I called him, he said he wasn't sure he wanted to sell the car - perhaps a bargaining ploy?  He said he'd call me if he wants to sell.  I'd always been leery about this listing because the pictures show almost nothing and there are no shots of the engine and almost none of the interior.  So, I never even got to the point of looking at it.

[Dan LeBlanc]

That's the key. He got on a plane and checked it out personally.

So many people want to buy cars but will not do this critical part.

Brian

Or have someone knowledgeable check it out for you.  I'll admit, I know 1961-1962 Cadillacs well, and could smell a rat from 10 miles away when it comes to those, however, with my 1970, I would've had no idea what to look for even if I would've gone to look at it myself.  That's why I had Brian check the car out for me - he knows 1970 Cadillacs well.  Best money I spent.  He clearly identified things that weren't 100% correct with the car and some little issues that I'd have to sort out.  Best money I spent.  There were no surprises when I picked up the car.  Actually, wait, yes there were.  I was surprised that it was a little better than I expected. 

That's one huge benefit of this club.  A group of knowledgeable people near a car one may be interested in that are more than willing to help.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

......  As always, do your due diligence and check the car out.  I got on a plane (from Dallas) and looked at it.  It was in my garage in about a month.  .......

When I purchased my own '72 Eldo in 2007, I was prepared to hop on a plane from Tasmania, Australia, but as I had a friend in the area, he went and took pictures of everything, including all the "Bad" bits, and after perusing these, I purchased it.   Then after the purchase, a CLC Member friend was heading back home from Hershey, or Carlisle with an empty trailer, and carried it all the way from Upstate New York to Michigan for storeage until I flew in in 2008 to start another tour of USA and Canada.

Looking back on those pictures, bot, it did look bad, but nothing I couldn't fix.   But, it did show that it was the car I wanted, and what is better, I could afford it.   Plus, it was MY money I was spending.   Another plus was that when my mate went to pay for it, a fella, at the dealers yard, knocked another $500.00 of the price.

Bruce.

[Jeepers Creepers]

We purchased from Classic and Collectible Cars in Vegas and found Mike to be very upfront and his description of the car we bought very accurate.

I would buy from them again without even thinking about.

To be fair, I was fairly wary at first and did search the company as much as I could, but Mike sort of gave me new outlook on car dealers. 

[P. Manoogian]

Circumstances mean a lot to me. I like cars that have had "long tome owners" although sometimes they do not know a lot.


The 59 I just bought was owned by the present owner in Vermont for about 17 years. It was near the last of his collection he was selling off. he had a huge barn built for his cars that is now virtually empty. he always bought restored or nice original cars and enjoyed them.He was not fanatical.


He had the title from the previous owner (from Oregon) who purchased it in the early 1990s from purportedly the original owner (in California). After tracking down the second owner on the internet and speaking with him he sent me pictures he took and we exchanged e mails.


I now know what was done to the car, why it was done, and when it was done.


Owning an old car is like searching for the past. You look for clues, evidence and you pursue every lead to better understand its history. Original one family owner cars with full documentation from day one are extremely rare and worth a premium in my opinion.


In 1998 I owned a 1963 Impala SS 409 hardtop. It took me three months to find the daughter of the original owner, Chester Shrode, an Indiana farmer who bought the car "because the Indiana State Police had 409 cars in 1963." Chester used the car to haul feed to his pigs. His daughter sent me a picture of him loading bags of feed in the trunk. When I stuck a hose in the frame a rich red dirt came out all over my driveway. It all made sense. Chester lost his farm to an Indiana power company and the car remained in a barn until the daughter sold it to a guy who flipped it at Charlotte Speedway. He then sold it to Ken Parker, a nursing home mogul in Virginia. When I called Ken he said he owned TWO Monaco blue 63 S cars and when he sold this one he gave the wrong title but still had the original title which he mailed to me. I am leaving out some facts about the amount of registry searches I did, fees i paid, etc. but it was like building a jigsaw puzzle.


Right now I am stuck on finding out that original owner of my 59. I know the guy owned a brake shop in Richmond California on 53rd Street "between the high school and a hospital." The second owner forgets his name and the Oregon registry docs I paid for have a lot redacted. For now, I am stuck but I will not give up.


My point is that I enjoy pursuing the history because as Shakespeare said, "What's past is prologue." How can you know what you have unless you know its past?

[13912]

Whether you buy from an individual seller or a dealer GET THE CAR INSPECTED BY AN UNBIASED  PROFESSIONAL INSPECTOR !  Even if the car is in your home town. I have used Road Ready inspections in Arizona who has a network of professional inspectors throughout the US who do a detailed 1 1/2 hour multiple point inspection, many pictures & a 15 minute drive  & send you the report the next day. The price is about $350 & has kept me from buying a dog but I've also bought cars based on their report & have been very happy with my decision.
Bob Dwyer
1974 Eldo conv

[D.Yaros]

For the amount of money involved the cost of a reliable inspection is bucks well spent!

I used these guys and was more than satisfied.  Their report led to me NOT buying the car.

http://automobileinspections.com/