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39 series 61 resto help

Started by DKelly, November 26, 2016, 01:47:33 PM

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DKelly

Hello Everyone;
I have restored some sports cars and am now attempting to restore a 1939 series 61. I have it totally stripped down with the engine ( heavy, holy cow)on a stand. It had been sitting in a field for a number of years with the hood off. The body is in great shape and worth the effort. Here are some questions I hope you can help me with. I have had the motor soaking for two years to try and break it loose, wouldn't budge. After tearing it apart I can see why, what a mess. I have no chance of freeing it up. The crank won't budge so I can't remove two of the connecting rod cap screws to the pistons. So here goes. I would like to clean it out remove everything and replace it. EVERYTHING IS RUSTED IN PLACE.
1) Do the pistons have to come out the top? How would you get them out? break them?
2) Any suggestions on how to remove the partially hidden cap screws so I can get the crank out?
3) I have the valve lifter assemblies out. How do I get the stuck valves and springs out? Do I really need the remover adaptor as shown in the tank manual TM 9-1729A?
I am an amateur at this stuff but enjoy doing it. I am afraid to bang on stuff as I don't want to ruin something I don't have to, so I'm hoping you folks can give me some ideas to get this stuff removed without damaging the block.
4) what can I heat and what can I cut out? (springs?)
Thanks for reading. This is my first post here and I'm sure it won't be my last. Some great posts on here.
Thanks again nice to meet you all.
Dennis

Steve Passmore

Hi Dennis. I had an engine just like that some 15 years back. My opinion? its probably toast. If you cant turn the crank theres not much you can do. My engine had water in the bores which froze and imploded the bores into the water jackets. Virtually nothing was salvageable but there are plenty of these engine around in your country. There's an ad for a free one on the forum at the moment.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

DKelly


Bobby B

Dennis,
Hi...Take Steve's advice as your first step. Get something that was at least running at some point in its life, and that's a good start. Flatheads are not complicated to work on and there are a few tricks to them, along with a few special tools that will make your life a Hell of a lot easier. >:D  There are certain areas you need to check before you even attempt a rebuild on these engines. Rebuilds are not cheap, even when doing a lot of the work yourself. Your next hurdle is finding a competent machinest who is willing to work with you on a vintage flathead engine. Some old school machinery is helpful, so seek out someone in the know. There are a lot of Knowledgeable people on this forum regarding the Flathead engine, and we can probably save you some aggravation along the way. I would suggest a Shop Manual for starters and here's some good reading before you dive in and get your feet wet. Good Luck and Keep Us Posted.......
                                                                                                                                                                          Bobby
http://www.rmrclc.com/waltsWorkBench.html

Click on "Restoring your Flathead" Chapters 1-8 and Print them out. This will get you started in the right Direction along with the Shop Manual, and this Forum.  ;)
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

DKelly


tozerco

Dennis,

Like Steve and Bobby said.

Keep your eye out/start the search for another engine. There are too many things (cracked block/already over-bored cylinders/already over-ground crankshafts/etc. etc. that you could still find that will make a life-in-a-field-with-no-hood flathead not worth any effort.... and flatheads are still out there.

John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

Steve Passmore

Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

tozerco

John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

DKelly

What would be the best way to remove not to badly rusted in valve guides on  346 flathead? The guides are much smaller in diameter than say a ford which I see they use a socket to tap them down. Do I also use a socket for this? The service manual doesn't really adress this.
Thanks
Dennis

Steve Passmore

There.s a special tool, I made one but for years I just found a bolt that would fit the ID, ground off the head so it would sit on the guide but was slightly smaller than the OD and drive it out with a hammer and drift. You really have to beat on them if they have been in there a while.  Hold off replacing them until you know if your block can be salvaged.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

DKelly

Thanks Steve, I'll give it a try. The engine ran about 25 years ago and so far the block looks really good but I'm no expert.

Steve Passmore

The way you were talking when you opened this thread you said the block was totally frozen and could not be freed up. Has this changed?
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Bobby B

Quote from: DKelly on December 03, 2016, 11:29:50 AM
Thanks Steve, I'll give it a try. The engine ran about 25 years ago and so far the block looks really good but I'm no expert.

I would take Steve's advice....Don't waste your time or money performing any work on the block just yet. Clean it REAL good and send it out to be Magnafluxed FIRST, paying special extra attention to the following trouble spots (hairline cracks) that are notorious regarding the 346 Flathead:
1. In-between the Valve Seats
2. In-between the two 1" freeze plugs in the water crossover between the valley covers
3. Obviously, the Cylinder walls especially right off the top of the block edge going into the bore
                                                                                    Good Luck,
                                                                                           Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

DKelly

Well I had a long post with some pics but somhow I lost it. So Steve sorry for the confusion I just meant that it was stuck pretty good and couldn't move it. Poor choice of words. I got those pesky valve guides out, what a pain. The block is stamped 327, is that norman for the 346?
Bobby thanks for your posts both you guys are helping me navigate through this project I really apreciate it. I tend to ignore bad new for a little while but I eventually come around.  ??? What do you think of the block?  I just brushed it alittle. Do you think I should proceed to having it looked at?
Thanks again
Dennis 

Steve Passmore

If after crack testing its good then corrosion to those valve seats could be an issue. Don't be tempted to just cut new seats. Cadillacs seats are a three sided affair and have to be a specific height. If they are just re-cut the valves move closer to the camshaft and you have to retain 3" there, if not you have to remove stock from the valve. Its easy to run out of metal on the end of the valve and you end up with valves never fully closing. Not many machine shops can fit new seats and re-cut these triple angle flatead seats, least not in this country.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Bobby B

Quote from: Steve Passmore on December 03, 2016, 05:00:37 PM
If after crack testing its good then corrosion to those valve seats could be an issue. Don't be tempted to just cut new seats. Cadillacs seats are a three sided affair and have to be a specific height. If they are just re-cut the valves move closer to the camshaft and you have to retain 3" there, if not you have to remove stock from the valve. Its easy to run out of metal on the end of the valve and you end up with valves never fully closing. Not many machine shops can fit new seats and re-cut these triple angle flatead seats, least not in this country.

Agreed. Some of the pitting/recession around those seats might not be worth repairing. Valve seats done properly on the 'Ol School Van Norman....... ;)
                                                                                                                                                     Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Steve Passmore

Took me years to find a shop here capable of inserting and cutting these correctly.  Width of the seat where the valve touch is a sharp ring of only about 3/16".   One has to weigh up if a block is worth saving if all 16 need replacing? especially if the bores are shot as well.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

tozerco

Then again you might consider having stainless steel valve inserts done to solve a whole range of problems in which case the machinist will cut out the old seats anyway. I have had this done with one of my blocks to better handle the petrol we have now.
John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

tozerco

....bang on what others have said about crack testing, particularly between exhaust valves and the near cylinder wall.
John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

Bobby B

#19
Quote from: tozerco on December 04, 2016, 05:31:29 PM
....bang on what others have said about crack testing, particularly between exhaust valves and the near cylinder wall.

Don't ask me how I know  ::).........
                                  Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH