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59 Tri Power value? Appraisal for insurance

Started by magicchiz, December 08, 2016, 08:48:18 PM

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magicchiz

So my insurance company has to have a private appraisal for me to get set value on my insurance.  I got one 5 years ago.  Really the only thing I have added is a restored factory tri-power to my 390.  It is all there including distributor, linkages, vacuum can, air cleaner.  All restored and working.  A real undertaking, but done and working.  Question is what does everyone see the value of a working tri-power being.  No it is not a factory tri-power car.  It is in a Coupe Deville.  Although I believe the Tri-power was a add on option. 
I want to at least give the appraiser a idea.
John Chism

Dave Shepherd

I do these appraisals in NYS.  Done right  with the proper air cleaner, linkage and so on, I would add 2 K to the normal appraisal.

magicchiz

Really?
Just the parts alone go for 2 to 3k if you can find them. Then the restoration....I wont even go into that cost.  I think your a little low on your value. 
Jc

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Classic car insurance companies are generally pretty flexible in the amount they'll allow you to insure the car for - especially if the costs of the improvement(s) can be documented or, at least, reasonably ascertained.  The extra insurance will be reflected in the premium anyway.

As to whether an tri-carb swap adds any value to a '59 Coupe deVille in the real world market - is a whole 'nother discussion.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

robert G. smits

John, there are multiple carriers that do not require an appraisal.  Try a quote from one of them.  Is your carrier paying for the appraisal??  Just my TCW.  Bob Smits #2426
R. Smits, #2426
23 Cad 7P Touring
32 Cad 5P Coupe
38 Cad 90 Series
41 Cad 63 Series
58 Cad Eldo Barritz
The average man can take care of one Woman and two Cadillacs, Al Edmond AACA Past President

59-in-pieces

John,
There is No question that to bring a Coupe to the level of a tri-power Coupe would cost 6K - manifold, carbs, linkage, distributor & tri-power cap, vacuum STUFF, etc. etc. - without labor, and time to round it all up.

The cost does not normally drive the value up dollar for dollar - and in some cases modifications can have the opposite effect.
And that is where Eric is right - how does cost translation to value.

A Coupe ordered with tri-power would likely be valued higher - all other things being equal.
However, since yours is neither fish nor fowl, the value rests somewhere between a 4 barrel Coupe and a special ordered tri-power Coupe - but even that is too simplistic.
Is there a buyer out there who would be willing to pay a meaningfully higher price for tri-power - maybe slim and none, and certainly that would not result in a meaningfully higher amount of insurance.

I agree that there are other insurance companies that don't dance on the head of a pin on value.
Look in Hemmings - there are at least 4 with full page colored ads.

Have fun,
Steve B.
S. Butcher

Chuck Patton

#6

Hello John

I concur with Eric.  I would add your vehicle is not a factory Q engine.  Therefore it is a modification upgrade.  I would recommend that you contact Brian Rachlin for an appraisal value.
Appraiser-Broker-Consultant
Past CLC National Board Director
Past CLCMRC Director
Past CLC Motor City Region President
CLC 1959-60 Cadillac Chapter Director
CLC Life Member #23147

Dave Shepherd

 The appraisal value of these upgrades are subjective, there are probably no comps to get a real world picture of the net increase in value, so it is up to an appraiser to come up with a  figure, ask 10 appraisers, get ten different figures. The cost of the upgrade does not compute to a real market value.

76eldo

I have been with Grundy for many years.  I recently added a 65 Corvette to my policy and they wanted 4 photos, one on each side plus front and back.  In the past I have added cars without sending photos and at agreed values on the upper end of the reasonable market prices.  Grundy actually adds about $1000 in value on each vehicle per year when my policy renews.  I don't mind because the added premium is just a few dollars but in the event of a serious loss I am covered for a higher value.

The subject of options and equipment on the car never comes up.  I just tell them what I think the car is worth.

I sold John the tri power carbs and manifold with almost all of the necessary pieces but I know he spent a lot on getting the carbs rebuilt and correct plus finding a correct distributor. 

The bottom line is that if a client is requesting coverage for an amount that the underwriters feel is on the high side, they do have the right to ask for an appraisal.  Appraisers and inspectors... some are very well informed and some are not so the appraisal can go well or not so well.

On the resale side, I don't think the tri power addition would ever amount to a bump in price of more then $3000.00 which would be the perceived value of the parts from a "Caddy guy" that would put the four barrel back on and sell the trips.

A tri power car with documentation and a Q code engine might bring a $5000 premium on the resale side. 

Insurance value is just in case of a total loss or theft which thankfully does not happen very often.  Hopefully you can come to a mutually agreeable "Agreed Value" with your carrier.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

35-709

Didn't the "Q" engines also have a different cam?  If my memory is correct, and the correct cam was not installed, I would say the added value to the car is no more than the cost of the tri-power parts that were installed. 
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

76eldo

I am not aware of a different cam, however, Tri Power cars do seem to have a "lumpier" idle so it's possible.  A Tri Powered car also has a higher rear gear ratio, same as the AC cars.

I guess if I check my Master Parts book for the cam it would say if there are two or more different cams in 59 and 60.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Roger Zimmermann

There is no different camshaft. According to the MPL, the cam shaft was the same from 1957 to 1962.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Scot Minesinger

I insure my classics as regular cars and use them for errands and business trips, which is one of the major ways to enjoy them.  Given my demanding career and that I do have to drive places, this kills two birds with one stone.  The notion of devoting an entire day to a cars show is off the table except a few times a year (4).  Although it may be possible to insure with a classic insurance provider with agreed on value, I really have to be sure my liability is protected thoroughly and use a conventional highly reputable insurer.  This insurance company also wanted an appraisal and unfortunately it really is on the low side, because they used crappy e-bay cars as the comps.

You did not write if this was a classic insurer or a standard conventional insurer, the latter generally requiring an appraisal.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

35-709

#13
 I am quite sure that the "Q" code engines came from the factory with a different cam.  I will look further when I have more time.

Quote from: Jeff Wilk on August 24, 2013, 04:17:13 AM
The distributor cap for a tripower distributor is different. The adjustment window is located completly differently. Two distinct part numbers in the Master Parts Catalog.  Shop Manual/literature also states that tripower cars are equipped with 3x2 carbs and manifold, a different camshaft, and special distributor and cap.

  Tripower cars also have an additional vac reserve tank on the firewall mounted above the brake booster. They also have a different ignition coil bracket, throttle/trans linkage, and a unique fuel filter outlet brass "t" to accommodate the multiple steel fuel lines.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

Mine is insured as a regular car also. My in company gives a discount if driven under 7500 miles/year.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Scot Minesinger

The issue for me is if I'm found at fault during a business errand and injure a Senator's daughter while driving my 1970 Cadillac, the classic car insurance company may not help on the 500k claim, but a regular insurance policy will all day long.  I just cannot chance it.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

76eldo

3511217 is the part number in the Master Parts book and shows as "cam and dowel" 1958-1960.
No reference is made to a different part number for Tri-Power cars, just one part number as shown above.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

chrisntam

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on December 11, 2016, 01:21:16 PM
I insure my classics as regular cars and use them for errands and business trips, which is one of the major ways to enjoy them. ....Snip

Scot, I assume you have full coverage including collision?  I read in another thread that you're installing dual comfort seats.  In the red car?

chris.
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

signart

Quote from: 76eldo on December 11, 2016, 12:36:26 AM
I am not aware of a different cam, however, Tri Power cars do seem to have a "lumpier" idle so it's possible.  A Tri Powered car also has a higher rear gear ratio, same as the AC cars.

I guess if I check my Master Parts book for the cam it would say if there are two or more different cams in 59 and 60.

Brian
I think you'll find the a/c and tri-power cars to have a lower gear ratio. I have no idea whether or not a special cam is employed, but the fact that that a higher lift cam usually results in less torque and most cases less vacuum would explain the lower gear and the aux. vac canister IF it were equipped with a special cam. Would be interesting to find out if this is the case.
Art D. Woody

76eldo

Higher or lower depending on how you word it.

It's a higher number, providing a lower gear ratio.

Like a 3:08 rear is referred to as a higher rear gear than a 4:11 which is referred to as a lower gear ratio.

I don't know why, but that's the way it's always been.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado