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472 Heads re-done Question

Started by JokerLimo, January 16, 2017, 05:25:03 PM

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JokerLimo

I have been told that my 1969 472 heads are leaking oil into the cylinders and fouling out the plugs.

I wish to have the heads "re-done". I am told by one shop $800 and on up for "complete job"    new springs ,valves,etc.. They also say they can make it so the fuels used today (without lead) will not harm there work. Do I really need all that work done to the heads or can a shop just reuse the valves , springs etc. and re-do the heads?  I'm a carpenter by trade and don't want to get ripped off or not do it right the first time. Any comments or suggestions would greatly be accepted.

35-709

If all you need are valve stem seals, they can be done with the heads in place on the engine, assuming your compression is up to snuff and you don't need a valve job.  You do not need hardened valve seats.  In my opinion you need to keep looking for another shop that will do what you need, not what they want to sell you.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#2
As we always say, it's not the job, it's the might as wells.....
There are threads about doing the seals with the heads in place. Now to help your decision process, since you are a carpenter, use your compressor to fill each cylinder with shop air when the valves are closed. If you get air out of the carb, your intake valve is bad. If you get air out of the tailpipe, your exhaust valve is bad. This mite help you make your decision....... IF you decide to pull the heads, get everything done. You will kick yourself if you don't get everything done while you have them off. And, it would be a plus to any future buyers if you have everything done. However be sure to find a shop that is open to using what they deem reusable instead of just replacing everything.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Bobby B

Is that $800.00 Labor & Materials? If it's $800.00 just to do the guides, I would say that that's slightly on the high side. Follow the above instructions. If it's just the seals, you can do this yourself. No need for hardened seats at this point, unless........
                                     Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

savemy67

Hello AC,

The first sentence in your post makes me ask, by whom were you told that the heads are leaking oil and fouling the plugs?  If you trust the person who told you, and you believe they have good automotive diagnostic skills, then ask them for their recommendation about how extensive a valve job is needed.

Determining how extensive, and therefore how expensive, a valve job is needed is a function of diagnosis and inspection.  As Jeff suggested, a leak-down test will reveal how well the valves are seating and whether or not there is significant guide wear.  Can springs be re-used?  Yes they can, provided they meet the inspection criteria spelled out in the Cadillac shop manual.

I agree with others that hardened seats are not absolutely necessary, and new seals may solve your problem.  Sometimes, a repair shop will say that everything needs to be done because that shop does not want you to come back with a problem.  The only way that shop can reasonably ensure that you won't come back, is if they do everything possible in the way of supplying new parts short of a new cylinder head.  I can understand a position like this, but I am also of the opinion that wholesale replacement of all parts demonstrates a certain lack of craftsmanship on the part of the shop.  It seems to me that we live in an age where repair is too expensive, and disposal and replacement are the order of the day.  This is a vicious circle as repair skills will be lost.

You may want to shop around for a shop that understands how to diagnose your problem, and then offers you options as to how extensive a repair you want to choose.  How long do you plan to keep the car?  What kind of mileage do you put on the car?  Is the car burning oil?  How often do the plugs need to be cleaned?  Provide as much useful information you can to a shop, and consider the shop that gives you answers that make sense.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

76eldo

Or you could ask the shop how much it would cost to just replace the seals.  Do a little googling or youtubing to see what the valve seals are, what they do, and how they are installed.  That;s the most common way of oil getting into the cylinder and fouling plugs but worn rings will also let that happen.

Need to do more research or maybe get a second opinion on it.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

AC,
You give no information about how many miles are on the motor and how it is running.  Typically unless the valve guides were damaged or the seals (usually on a single or a couple of cylinders) were bad the wear you mention might indicate a high mileage motor requiring just a bit more than valve seals.  Things like oil pumps, timing sets (gears/chain) piston rings all wear.

I did a full rebuild on my wife's '76 about 20 years ago, anhd it has #6 cylinder fouling the plug.  The motor has about 120k on it, and my intention is to pull the heads, do a valve job and reseal the valves.  Knowing "Murphy's Law" like I do, before I pull the heads I am preparing a fresh 10:1 short block in case I find more wear in the motor than just the valve seals.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Scot Minesinger

More info please to help us help inform you.

Normally a valve job if you bring the heads to the machine shop is $800 plus labor to remove and reinstall heads.  Reads like they are just replacing valve seals.  Oil fouling plugs could be a bad valve cover gasket which is a much lower cost job.

Since you work with your hands, you know nothing is very complicated if you know how.  Replacing windows may seem like a nightmare to someone who has never done it - you know what I mean.  I would do this myself.  You will probably do a better job than a shop because you care, will read, and take care. 

Info that would be most useful:

1.  How long do you plan to keep the car?
2.  How often is it driven, mileage per year?
3.  Mileage and history on engine?
4.  Why did you bring it to a mechanic?  What were the engine issues?

Thanks
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Scott,
Perhaps it is time for me to learn something new. How can a bad valve cover gasket cause oil fouled spark plugs?
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

76eldo

Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Scot Minesinger

oil leaks out of cover and down onto plugs. 
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

cadman56

More questions to ask in addition to Scot's:
1.  Does the car put out blue smoke when starting after setting overnight  Smoke goes away                 after running a few minutes.
2.  Does the car put out blue smoke when accelerating.
These are just very basic tests to start with. 
Good luck, Larry
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville (sold)
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible (Sold)
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on January 17, 2017, 07:18:54 PM
oil leaks out of cover and down onto plugs.
That would give you a greasy motor and a lot of smoke under the hood.

The original issue here was whether the cost of the head work was worth the money.  My machine shop here in Texas, one that specializes in heavy duty and high performance work charges somewhere in the neighborhood of $350.00 for a valve job with new seals and guides.  That might be a benchmark on the costs, but as others have pointed to, there might be more wear than just the valve seals.  A knowledgeable mechanic (don't know where you are but I am sure there is one reasonably close) should do a compression and a leakdown test to let you know what you are going to be in for.

Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Bobby B

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on January 17, 2017, 09:32:24 PM
My machine shop here in Texas, one that specializes in heavy duty and high performance work charges somewhere in the neighborhood of $350.00 for a valve job with new seals and guides.  That might be a benchmark on the costs, but as others have pointed to, there might be more wear than just the valve seals. 
Greg Surfas

Greg,
Same here. I pay between $300.00-$400.00 for a set of V8 heads with new guides, seals, and valves cleaned up and cut, in a modern state-of-the art machine shop. $800.00 has the be the Full Monty....
                                                               Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Scot Minesinger

Reading the original post again it does state that the $800 is for new valves, springs and etc., so it is the full job.  That is a great price in this area (Washington, DC).  Generally a valve job in our area on a V-8 (you bring the car to them) and they do the entire job, including taking the heads to a local machine shop and picking up is $1,500. 

Likely the heads will not be able to be removed without breaking an exhaust manifold bolt, and that adds a little more cost to the job.

Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

TJ Hopland

Valve wear issues are not a common issue with this family engine.    That is guides, seats, and the valves themselves.   Its certainly possible but not the norm for how these engines tended to have been used and cared for.    Your typical Chev, Ford, Mopar that the classic shops see do often show a lot of wear because they were made with lower quality materials to start with and a little looser tolerances.  They often got used a little harder with maybe a little less care than the typical Cadillac.

Now the seals are another story,  they are not the more typical 'rubber umbrella' type of seal, they are more of a hard plastic deflector.   I think they are made out of the same stuff as the timing chain sprockets and like those age and or miles are very hard on them.   I don't think I have ever been into one of these that had much left of those seals.   Its like the oil gets absorbed into them and they become brittle.

 

This thing came out of a fairly low mile car,  I heard it run but was in a pretty much totaled car so I could not drive it.  I don't remember the miles, may have been 40-50K range.  Looked like the car the little old lady drove to church every Sunday.  There was no plastic left on any of the exhaust valves and a few tiny chunks left on the intakes.  Guessing that was because the exhaust tended to run hotter.  This was an intake valve.   I think those are the heads and valves that are in my current engine and I think all everything got was a light cleanup and new seals.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

Jeez, TJ.
That reminds me, I need to get my cholesteral checked.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

TJ Hopland

I wanted to keep those valves as is to display but except for the crap they were the best ones I had.   The heads I was planning on using had got wet so had more issues so we ended up cleaning those up.   Even the machine shop guy was impressed with that build up.   I had seen it before on other Cad motors but not anywhere near that bad.    I did a Pontiac or Olds that was close to that bad one time too but I think that one had badly worn guides and seats too.   That one would run sort of ok if you could get it started but you could only get it started 1 out of 10 tries. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

JokerLimo

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on January 17, 2017, 11:59:35 AM
More info please to help us help inform you.

Normally a valve job if you bring the heads to the machine shop is $800 plus labor to remove and reinstall heads.  Reads like they are just replacing valve seals.  Oil fouling plugs could be a bad valve cover gasket which is a much lower cost job.

Since you work with your hands, you know nothing is very complicated if you know how.  Replacing windows may seem like a nightmare to someone who has never done it - you know what I mean.  I would do this myself.  You will probably do a better job than a shop because you care, will read, and take care. 

Info that would be most useful:

1.  How long do you plan to keep the car?
   ..........forever
2.  How often is it driven, mileage per year?
........as a daily driver rotating with 3 other vehicles .
3.  Mileage and history on engine?
........91000 no history , but seems to be well taken care of.
4.  Why did you bring it to a mechanic?  What were the engine issues?
was running bad. issue was proven to be butterfly valve in exhaust not opening up to let right side exhaust out the tailpipe. thus it was causing extreme heat build up on heads,manifold, intake manifold crossover and carb.
Update. heads are taken to shop 300 is starting price, waiting on there report of what is recomended.
Thanks

JokerLimo

Quote from: Bobby B on January 16, 2017, 08:43:10 PM
Is that $800.00 Labor & Materials? If it's $800.00 just to do the guides, I would say that that's slightly on the high side. Follow the above instructions. If it's just the seals, you can do this yourself. No need for hardened seats at this point, unless........
                                     Bobby
the 800+ was from a shop that recomended to do everything new.