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How to save from forty to fifty thousand dollars...

Started by Barry M Wheeler #2189, March 15, 2017, 08:45:21 AM

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Barry M Wheeler #2189

The tranny on the 2016 ATS has been "gulping" when I drive it away in the mornings, and the dealership told me to bring it in. I had some tests scheduled this morning so I suggested that we use this day to see if there was anything wrong. I asked for the CT6 for a loaner and (naturally) they stalled around until I was running late for the test across the river. So, I hopped into the driver's seat and was subjected to Gay's complaints about her knees being cold. I set the temp on 81 but she still kept up a running commentary all the way. (I apologized to the nurses that were sticking me for blood for being late and mentioned my wife's complaints, and they laughed and said, "Don't you know that complaining like that is part of a woman's job?")

The driver's seat was set for a dwarf and every time I started the car, I was smooched up against the steering wheel. (Glenn Brown would have been crushed to death.) On the way back across town for lunch, I finally had time to adjust things and thought I'd confuse the car and hit "2" for the memory seat. I don't know what other button I hit (or even if I did) but about half way there, it started to move forward again. I did hit the seat control and got it stopped.

You have to have the car full of gas when you return it, or they charge $5 per gallon to do it themselves. While at lunch, I called and asked if was "really" full when I got it (remember I was in a hurry and didn't look myself.) and they said that it was. So, I stopped at the closest gas station to the dealership on the way back and put over five gallons in. When I got back, I asked for the starting mileage and found I had driven 17 miles. So, going by these figures, the car got between two and three miles per gallon.

When I coasted up to the pump, the car shut off and then started again. It really "jumped" and I was glad I had my foot near the brake!

I did like the engine...Lots of uumph!. But if I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd look at a loaded ATS or CTS. I was glad to get back into my ATS. I really do like my base model ATS better than the flagship queen. Loved the backup screen and sound system. But Cadillac still needs to look at a '79 Fleetwood to know how to make a simple heating system that WORKS. (And the numbers on the dial really mean something.)

Maybe I'm too old to "Dare greatly..."
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Scot Minesinger

Barry,

I think you should give the CT6 another chance.  Being in a rush, wife complaining, getting ripped off for gas (granted Cadillac dealer dishonesty/mistake, but not car's fault), and unfamiliar with newer controls would cause many to suffer an unpleasant experience.  It reads like some education on the controls and a little time to adjust and you might like the CT6 more.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Bob Schuman

Barry
I would like to know more about the "gulping" transmission in your ATS. My 2017 CT6 has been in the dealer several times for sometimes making very jolting shifts from first to second gear. It has been there three weeks waiting for GM to finally decide to ship in a new transmission, which hopefully will finally provide a car that is not unpleasant to drive in town.
My car has the stronger 8L90 eight speed hydramatic, whereas the lower powered engines such as yours use a lighter duty 8L45 version. During this ongoing saga I have used 2016 and 2017 CTS cars and a 2017 Buick LaCrosse, all equipped with the 8L45 transmission and all have been perfect. I was thinking the rough shifting with my car and others using the 8L90 transmission (look at Cadillac Owners.com website, then click on CT6 forum) is exclusive to that transmission, until reading your post today.
Bob Schuman
Bob Schuman, CLC#254
2017 CT6-unsatisfactory (repurchased by GM)
2023 XT5

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Yes Barry,
Maybe it is just your imagination that you were uncomfortable. I have been waiting for 30 years for Cadillac to produce something that has the ride, performance and comfort of my '76 Coupe.  They came close with the 2000 (era) Devilles, but went the "wrong" way.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

59-in-pieces

I took my wife's Escalade in to the dealer to get the oil pressure sensor replaced - jumped from 80 to 0 psi, and all around.
Why did Mr. hands-on have the dealership do the job - well, I Googled the fix and it requires removing the intake manifold and a dozen other things attached, to even get to it way in the back - $20 part.  I can be honest - open the hood and all there is, is a fancy piece of plastic covering everything that makes the car function - intimidating.

I too asked for a loan car - some wiz-bang numbered job - not a Coupe De - or Sedan De, Fleetwood or Brougham - no just letters & a number, ridiculous.  When I went to get in, I had to duck under the roof line, yes the seat was all the way down and back.  Even when I got in, my knees were up ready for the paps smear.

Also, I hated to come to a full stop, and the car shuts off, and jack rabbits to life when you step on the gas - God forbid I was stopped behind another car too close.

AND then there was the memory seat.  I don't know who Glenn is, but if he is like me 6' 2", and a full figured guy - I got smoooshed into the steering wheel, until I found the buttons and hit them all to get it to stop.  I thought I would need a Paramedic with the jaws of life.

Yah, it scooted right along.

Like Greg, I guess I'm nostalgic, looking for the new Cads to be like the classics - BETTER.  IMHO - the car overall SUCKED.

I feel better now that I have gotten that off my chest - maybe it was brought on by the huge bill to replace a sensor.
Have fun,
Steve B.
S. Butcher

Dan LeBlanc

Barry is referring to Glenn Brown, CLC Past President.  I'm 6'-0".  Standing next to him, I feel like a midget.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Scot Minesinger

Guys,

Really? - So any new car that you are unfamiliar with where the previous occupant was shorter and the seat was not adjusted to suit the next driver that is a large person is a terrible car?  The seat controls cannot be figured out immediately and the car is terrible?  Granted I hate the shutoff at stop light thing, but it is either that or a less powerful engine to meet the gas mileage requirements.

Also, generally affluent people that Cadillac is targeting are not large.  Statistically wealthy people are generally earning better BMI than poor people who cannot afford Cadillacs.  I'm only 5'-9" so they are all fine to me, Glen really makes me look like a very small person (look at the GN2016 banquette video).  However tall men statistically earn more than short men (height is not an impact on women earning capability).

There is no question that the older Cadillacs are great, hence this forum.  It is really cool that a 40 year old car can easily maintain pace with modern traffic.  Cars really suffered in the 1980's decade and were less than the cars of the 1960's and 1970's, but cars now are real nice, but not as large, stylish and distinctive.

The reason I suggested that the CT6 be given another chance is that the modern ATS seems accepted. 

Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Barry M Wheeler #2189

Scott, I think what Steve and I are "complaining" about is that usually, if you get in a Cadillac, from 1941-1995, in a few minutes, you have figured it out and are (safely) on your way. Even my wife, who has put up with Cadillacs of all different years in our married life has been able to drive them easily. But this thing (CT6), well, it's just plain annoying to get in a car and have the seat move you up well beyond past where a dwarf would set it.

And that "hop, skip, and jump" deal at the gas pump...Like Steve said, I'm really glad there wasn't another car in front of me. Cadillacs don't (shouldn't) do things like that, at least in my experience.

It is beautiful, and well built. But you shouldn't have to take your eight-year old great-granddaughter along with you to figure out how to drive the car.  (That's why you see those little kids standing next to the new Coke machines at Wendy's. They're actually working there, saving up for college to help "old" folks get their drinks.)

Technology is great. But let's get all the kinks out before we foist all the changes onto the public.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Bob Schuman

The 2017 CTS loaner I have been driving for three weeks while my CT6 awaits a new transmission has the most wonderful feature. Barry, I'm sure you will immediately want to trade your ATS for a CTS. The sliding cover over the upholders is POWER OPERATED. How have we managed all these years without this feature. My 41,49, and 51 Cadillacs may also have this feature, but I can't find their cupholders to test the covers.
Bob Schuman
Bob Schuman, CLC#254
2017 CT6-unsatisfactory (repurchased by GM)
2023 XT5

35-709

"My 41,49, and 51 Cadillacs may also have this feature, but I can't find their cupholders to test the covers."

Must have been an option back then.   ;D
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

TJ Hopland

That seat thing bugs me too.   Talk about something that does not seem to have any sort of a standardized control method or location that could present a serious safety risk.    That seems like something that should have a somewhat standard location or at least a standard located 'kill' switch.    I have been crushed more than a few times.   Last time it didn't move the seat when the door closed, it seemed to delay till I put it in gear.  Luckily my first thought was not to start figuring out hot to stop it, it was to put it back in park and then to start smashing all the buttons and sticks I could find.   I tried opening the door thinking that would run the seat back but it locked when I put it in gear and didn't unlock when I got it back in park.  I don't even remember how I finally got it to stop and got out. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Scot Minesinger

I remember reading Consumer Report in the 1970's about a wonderful car they were evaluating and they gave it bad rating because some control was unfamiliar to them.  Generally any feature of the car that is a little tricky to operate is not an issue if you buy and drive the car regularly.  It may be an issue in a rental car, but not a long term owner car (like more than a year).  My 2006 Dodge Charger has annoying features like that too; such as just recently resetting the clock for "spring ahead", get out the 500 page OM, find which of the ten radio options you have and read the three page thing on it, whereas my 1970 Cadillac I just twist the knob.  Just saying a feature easily mastered after someone shows you how to work it is not a negative on the entire car.  I just wait until one of my teenagers is a passenger in the Dodge and get them to change it for me, or just live with it an hour off for six months.

If I wanted to buy a CT6, it would be explained to the salesman that I'm not buying the car until you teach me how to use the features - and it would be done.  Cannot imagine if you told the Cadillac dealer that you wanted to buy a CT6 if only the seat operation was explained that they would not do it for you.

Do agree the stopping and starting the engine thing is stupid, but a lot of cars do that now.

If they made the 1994-96 Fleetwood RWD again with no changes since that time, I would buy it tomorrow.  If I did not live in a salt the roads every time the temp is forecasted to drop blow 35'F area I would buy a 1976 SDV and press it into service as a daily driver.  Really like the old Cadillacs, but like to think a new one could be enjoyed too.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

cadillacmike68

^^^
I have the April 1968 Consumers Reports (an original). It's their annual auto Issue. They actually Complimented Cadillac's clear well laid out wiper switch as contrasted to a chevy switch which was not lit and had no words, just some confusing dials.

Their road test that month was the 1968 Sedan deVille. It got generally good comments (remember this was loooong before the arab oil embargoes) They were well pleased by its acceleration citing it as the "fastest accelerating car they had tested in years", and that only the "specialty cars corvette and toronado" had better acceleration. Unfortunately their test car had drum brakes and the knocked the car for this but not terribly.

Amazing what a change they had taken for 75-76 and later.....
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Scot Minesinger

Mike,

I don't like reading an automotive article evaluating a specific car where complaints about a wiper control, power seat, and etc. that is difficult to figure out, but can be as a criticism of the car in consideration of buying it long term.  OK, it is a valid complaint if you are the procurement officer for a rental car fleet.  I'm sure that any Chevy buyer in 1968 would figure out how to operate their windshield wipers and it would not be a negative after a few days of ownership.  The main thing about cars has always been styling, drivetrain, how they drive, comfort, options, and way down the list is being able to figure out how to operate everything the minute you enter an unfamiliar car.  If you got into a Smart car for a 1,000 mile trip across the country would you complain about how difficult it is to open the glove box, or maybe that it may be unsafe?

BTW my theory is this is why muscle cars became so popular.  GM never really made a better (emphasis on better as a 1970 was equal) performing Cadillac than a disc brake equipped 1968 SDV until the 1994 RWD Fleetwood that I would want to buy.  The 1968 Cadillac outperformed almost all if not all Cadillacs manufactured in the 1980's, the era of muscle car growth in popularity.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Big Apple Caddy

Even in 1968, however, Consumer Reports was starting to favor import luxury brands like Mercedes over the domestics.   For example, they called Mercedes the best riding car overall that they ever tested, complimented its excellent handling, power disc brakes, etc.  Would recommended Mercedes over any U.S. sedan, blah blah blah.

Although still well below Cadillac, Mercedes' rapidly increasing sales in the mid-late 1960s into the 1970s prompted Cadillac to go after them with the "internationally sized" Seville.   By 1975 when the Seville was introduced, Mercedes sales in the U.S. had almost quadrupled over 1965 numbers.

Greg Powers

Unfortunately guys we are living in a "LAZY" society. We want everything to "work" without any effort on our part. It started simply enough with things like power windows and power door locks, then powers seats and power antennas and trunk release and pull down. Then we move to climate control, memory seats, auto door locks, remote start, and the list goes on and on. Now they tell us that we are going to be in self driving cars that drive and park themselves. If you look at J D Power evaluations of new cars, the majority of complaints have nothing to do with the car but with all of the "gadgets" that either don't work as described or don't work like the owner thinks they should. This is also what makes maintaining these new cars so frustrating, even the dealerships don't know how to get to bottom of some of the electronic "gremlins". There needs to be an override switch to allow the driver to be in control once again. Just think about it, "When was the last time you got up off the couch to change the channel on your TV set, that is if you even have a TV set any more?? - Greg       
G.L. Powers>1954 Series 62 Sedan/1958 Fleetwood 60 Special-sold/1963 Series 62 Convertible-sold/1970 Fleetwood Brougham-sold/1994 Fleetwood Brougham/1971 Sedan Deville-sold/2000 Deville-sold/2001 DTS-sold/1976 Eldorado Convertible-sold/1983 Coupe Deville-sold/1990 Allante-sold/1990 and 1991 Brougham deElegance-sold/1992 Brougham-sold/Always looking!

cadillacmike68

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 18, 2017, 08:44:23 AM
Mike,

I don't like reading an automotive article evaluating a specific car where complaints about a wiper control, power seat, and etc. that is difficult to figure out, but can be as a criticism of the car in consideration of buying it long term.  OK, it is a valid complaint if you are the procurement officer for a rental car fleet.  I'm sure that any Chevy buyer in 1968 would figure out how to operate their windshield wipers and it would not be a negative after a few days of ownership.  The main thing about cars has always been styling, drivetrain, how they drive, comfort, options, and way down the list is being able to figure out how to operate everything the minute you enter an unfamiliar car.  If you got into a Smart car for a 1,000 mile trip across the country would you complain about how difficult it is to open the glove box, or maybe that it may be unsafe?

BTW my theory is this is why muscle cars became so popular.  GM never really made a better (emphasis on better as a 1970 was equal) performing Cadillac than a disc brake equipped 1968 SDV until the 1994 RWD Fleetwood that I would want to buy.  The 1968 Cadillac outperformed almost all if not all Cadillacs manufactured in the 1980's, the era of muscle car growth in popularity.

Scot, their main issue with the wiper switch, which was Not part of the Cadillac test report (it was in their new cars review), was the fact the the chevy switch was not lit and had no English words, while the Cadillac switch was lit (adjustable) and was labeled in English. The chevy switch looked like it cane out of a 2010 or later asian car. Some day I might get off my lazy a$$ and scan the pages for you.

I agree that the 1968-70 Cadillacs were the best they ever made up until the 1994-96 Fleetwoods.




Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

TonyZappone #2624

I have driven many Cadillacs, collector cars, new cars, many different models.  Probably not as many as Barry, but a good number nevertheless.  There is a great deal to learn on the new CT6.  Mine was delivered to my home, because I was recovering from surgery.  My wife was brought up to speed enough to drive the car.  The dealership would have spent as much time as needed, if we had been willing to spend the time.  I still don't know how to do everything I should know about the car. this is  related to pure laziness.  Anybody with enough money to buy a CT6, should have smarts enough to sit with the owner's manual,, or a dealership rep and learn.  Quite frankly, all the things the car can and will do for the owner is nothing short of amazing, but you have to invest the time and effort to learn.  Not just on Cadillac, but all the cars that I looked at in this price range have virtually all the same futuristic gimmicks to learn.  This car is the 3.6, and yes once in awhile the transmission jerks from one bottom gear to another.  I live with it, it doesn't happen very often, and it doesn't take away from the fact that this car is the best car I have ever owned.
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

Scot Minesinger

Mike,

Understand that the Chevy wiper switch was poorly labeled and when a person unfamiliar with the car may have trouble working the switch at first, but after living with the car, a new owner would figure it out and would no degrade from the driving experience.  I think complaints like this are invalid (could use much stronger word), unless you are considering buying the car for a rental fleet where the majority of driven miles will be new people unfamiliar on a regular basis.  Understand that the CR liked the Cadillac wiper switch better than the Chevy, and for the money it should be better.  Who cares how the wipers turn on, as a reason to buy the car or not.  Have felt this way since started reading about cars.  Funny that times have not changed, people cannot figure out switches then in 1968, and now.


Tony,

Very well written.  Hope you are fully recovered from surgery and all is good - enjoy your Cadillac CT6!
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty