1976 Eldorado VIR Eliminator Kit

[7gen]

I have been struggling with my AC system for a while. Long story short, this last chapter saw the compressor grenade and fill the VIR with debris. The shop has spent beaucoup hours trying to get the system working again by installing a new A6 (not remanufactured) compressor and cleaning out the VIR but nothing is working. The gauge readings still look as though there is an obstruction in the POA valve. No amount of cleaning seems to be helping.

I have a new POA valve coming today in the PM. In case this does not work, I've also got a VIR eliminator kit coming from Old Air Products.

My concern is the A6 compressor. I believe it will handle the cycling as this same compressor was used in other vehicles that had cycling systems engineered from the factory. My concern is what will be the driving experience with spinning that A6 up and down all the time. Has anyone tried this? I read TJ had put this same system in so maybe he could give a report.

One of my issues that led me to consider the eliminator kit was the fact that when the last A6 (remanufactured) malfunctioned, it took out the VIR as well and I've got a lot of time in trying to make it work again. I am hoping that an accumulator system will be easier to service in case of another A6 failure (this is the third A6 in less than 1 year but the others were remanufactured and this one is new). Right now, my experience has been that when the A6 goes, I buy another VIR as well as a compressor and I'm hoping the eliminator system will be more easily serviced, not just replaced completely.

Anyone with an eliminator kit with an A6 have any wisdom to impart?

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

This has been discussed countless times but the short version is the A6 won't hold up to cycling. Aside from that when you cycle the compressor off all the moisture that the. Oil has removed from the air is re evaporated and comes into the cab along with an immediate increase of supply air temperature.
I am having difficulty understanding how you are diagnosing this. The VIR is a combination of receiver/dryer/expansion valve & POA in a single shell. Parts are available to replace any of the components and rebuilt assemblies are available from several reputable sources.
It  likely that something went wrong with the VIR and caused the compressor failure. There are literally  millions of these systems out there and working. Perhaps you shop doesn't have the proper expertise.
Greg Surfas

[7gen]

I watched a test of the system yesterday. I didn't measure it exactly, but the pressure on the high side never got over about 80. Compressor acting as it should with the clutch going engaging the system. System is charged. It has been flushed pretty thoroughly.

We've had the VIR apart several times. First to do a kit changeout of the desiccant bag/o-rings, etc. The POA and the XValve were cleaned as well. When we were not getting enough pressure on the high side, we made doubly sure about cleaning the valves. Still nothing. We've been working with Curtis at Classic Auto Air in Florida as consults and they are stumpified as well, so they are sending an NOS POA valve in case something is just wrong with the valve itself and they recommended the eliminator kit if that doesn't solve the issue. After cleaning everything, changing out the innards in the lower half of the unit and also the POA valve, the only thing that won't be new will be the Xvalve. There isn't anything left to do on a rebuild, so we will have a pretty much new VIR unit. At that point, Classic Auto Air said that the only thing left would be something wrong with the X-valve and no one has seen a replacement for that anywhere. They recommended that if the POA valve replacement does not work, after everything that has been done, to try an eliminator kit.

Their eliminator kit, though, requires a hose rebuild - the hose to the condenser is about two inches too short when the kit is installed. The hose used for the 1976 EEVIR is a special one, with a fitting that is a one-year deal only, so it can't just be gotten aftermarket. Classic Auto Air can rebuild the hose to the proper length but have a multiweek turn-around time. They will rebuild my VIR but that is also many weeks of waiting. This is the second VIR, btw - the first was no good on arrival. So my experience with VIRs is not stellar and neither is my experience with A6 compressors. I've spent a lot of time and money on this factory system and I've about had it. I'd like to get something more reliable and I don't care about keeping everything stock at this point.

I found that the VIR from Old Air is designed in a way that does not require that hose rebuild so I went that way.

From your answer, a compressor that is designed to cycle would not solve the issue of re-evaporation of moisture. So how does a modern system deal with this? VIRs were only in use for three years. I thought GM replaced them with essentially the system I'd be putting in (sans VIR). There has to be a way to solve the issue of moisture without using a VIR as there are a LOT of cars no longer running VIRs. I would have thought a CCOT compressor with the Eliminator Kit would essentially be the system that was in use for several years after 1976.

[Scot Minesinger]

Don't waste time "cleaning" a VIR that took in the debris of a compressor failure.  Replace it with a good rebuilt, they are $250 typically and take an hour to replace.  The refrigerant path leaving the compressor is the condenser, make sure that is free and clear - not clogged. 

Greg is right, you should not be cycling that compressor.  The POA is same cost as VIR and will be wrong for operation and invite untold comments from the purists.

This refrigeration system is simple, keep it that way and don't build a Frankenstein that only one place can fix.  If you brought it to me with a cycling POA and a/c did not work first thing I would do is install a VIR.  I do not believe in using inferior mechanical products to simulate authenticity, however VIR is best way to go.  GM used these for at least three or four model years across the line and so probably 4 million were made and they are available and work well.  I replaced one on a 1974 Camaro recently. 

Caution, sometimes you get a bad rebuild on a VIR, like the when you send in your VIR core and it is rebuilt - probably will not work well.  Make sure it comes with a warranty.

[7gen]

Do you have a recommended vendor for a VIR unit? I'd need an off-the-shelf one, not one that is going to rebuild my unit and send it back to me.

[TJ Hopland]

I have no formal training in heat/ac work.  I am just sharing my experience with my own car which is/was similar to the one in question. 

Stories like yours was why I decided not to stay with the VIR and A6.   My car isn't a show car so appearance was not a factor and all the under hood stuff was missing when I got the car 20+ years ago.   Quality of the A6's both rebuilt and new seem to be all over the place and I was not able to find a source that seemed to be consistently good, they all seemed to run into batches or suppliers that had issues.   Same thing with the VIR's.   Premium prices for questionable quality just wasn't worth it to me when their appeared to be other options that would fit my needs.    Its also completely reversible if someone wanted to go back to original.   If I had got all the original parts when I bought the car they could all be safely tucked away in a box waiting for the day where someone would want to reinstall them. 

I went with a Sanden compressor and the Old Air kit.   When my control system was in in a working mood it seemed to cool fine.   I also went to an aftermarket condenser so the whole combination of condenser, Sanden compressor, and Old Air eliminator kit could be why I seem to be getting good performance out of my system.   In my research I did not find anyone else that had changed all 3 pieces so that could be the key to my apparent success.   People that just did one or two of those items did seem to get mixed results.

Currently my control system has degraded to the point where its 99% useless so I have the compressor clutch disconnected.  This spring I did reconnect it just to see if the system still had a charge and it appears to.   High side lines get hot and low gets cold so if the air doors were in the correct positions and blower was at the right speed I would guess it would be cooling.  At this point I can't even get heat out of the thing.  I got Tim's book for the control system but it has not been at the top of the priority list to dig into.   

I'm in Minnesota so at various times we get at least a sample of what most of the rest of the USA experiences climate wise.  It is true that I don't have to deal with 100+ degree days all summer long so maybe my system would not be ideal for those conditions.  I really didn't notice any sort of conditions where it didn't seem to perform well.    Anytime the ambient temp is above around 80*F the compressor stays engaged all the time.   If its more in the 60's or lower 70's I do sometimes but not always hear it cycle when the car is not moving.    Its nothing crazy like 10 times per minute.   I would say at a long stoplight it may cycle twice so maybe on for a minute or two then off for 45 seconds to a minute.   Other than the click which I only hear with the windows down and radio off I don't feel or hear the engine acting differently, I don't think its enough load to really bother that engine even at idle in gear.   I have never noticed it when driving so I don't know if its cycling then or not.   For all I know it could be cycling every second and will explode next time I walk past it.  Remember in my case this is a Sanden compressor.   An A6 could be completely different.

Notes on the Old Air kit:     

The manifold dodad thing that comes out of the center of the canister rotates so you can position it wherever it needs to be.   When I did mine I never saw any note of that.   The way it was always pictured looked like it would work for me so I was surprised when opened the box and it was oriented a different way that would not work.   I was actually on hold with their tech line to see if there was a different model that pointed the other direction and was just fiddling with it when I put enough pressure on it that it moved.

The seal used for that rotating feature apparently doesn't work with vacuum so the system will not hold vacuum for extended periods.   Seems to hold pressure just fine and since that is what its normally doing it seems to work.

I had to slightly modify the bracket that holds the can.   By modify I don't mean cutting or drilling.   I think what I did was got a much longer screw and some nuts to create a stud and spacer sort of thing to allow the original clamp to accommodate the larger diameter.   I think I had to slightly bend the new screw to give it a bit if a curve and align with the original holes.  The original screw is zip tied to the VIR assembly so if its ever needed I will know where it is.

My lines were all new and custom so I can't say how or if it would work with OE style lines.  I believe they claim its supposed to work with stock lines but that could be for 75% of the GM models,  there always seemed to be some oddballs out there. 

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

First of all any debris in the system should get caught by the strainer I the VIR. Secondly IF the system is fully charge (3-1/2 lbs refrigerant) and you Are checking pressures at the discharge line just off  the compressor and 80 pounds is all you get AND the tx  capsule is okay you should have a very low or vacuum suction pressure. If so the POA capsule is defective. If you have replaced it it is possibly the wrong one (there are a few) or it is installed incorrectly. The part orientation and installation is critical. When you install the new VIR be sure you are checking both the hi and low pressures. If you have a FSMthere is a very concisive trouble matrix that has never let me astray and I personally log something like 50+ years of refrigeration and AC experience.
Greg Surfas

[TJ Hopland]

If so the POA capsule is defective. If you have replaced it it is possibly the wrong one (there are a few) or it is installed incorrectly. The print orientation and installation is critical.

Is that a typo or is there literally printing on the assembly?   Does it say something obvious like this end up or is it something you have to know or read in the directions?   If its something that easily fits the wrong way that could explain why so many people seem to have issues with these. 

And by wrong one is this also something that at a quick glance they may all look the same but there are differences?   Or maybe one of those things that the current manufacturers figure one size kinda fits all but works well in none?   What are the differences?   Just a subtle 'tune' that has to match something else in the system to get optimum performance?     

["Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364]

Auto correct does it again. That is part not print. O ring configuration is different on the two (or three) capsules
Greg Surfas

[TJ Hopland]

Is there a way with the parts in front of you to tell if you have the correct o ring configuration?

[7gen]

POA replacement in the existing VIR worked, at least good enough for now. I did not install the eliminator kit but will keep it "in case". I now have AC!!

The system is blowing 50 degrees, though, at highway speeds with air temp at 91 deg and high humidity. 60 at idle. I don't know enough right now about recirculation in the Eldorado convertible to know if taking 40 degrees out of the ambient is what I can expect with R-12 or not. It was comfortable but not as cold as I've heard others talk about.

[TJ Hopland]

Cool, pun intended. 

I wonder if it was what Greg was saying where it was in wrong or the wrong one?

Is this a convert?  If so how well does it seal up?  On mine the window alignment isn't the best so I get a fair amount of air leakage that really seems effect the comfort on those really humid days.   

It may be worth getting one of Tim's books or checking a shop manual to verify that all the doors are doing what they should be doing and you are getting all you can out of it.   If the recirculate door is staying open all the time you will always be fighting the warn air and humidity from outside.   Same thing if the water valve isn't closing, you will always be diluting the cold air with a little hot air.   Modest demand those things are not that noticeable but when you go into 'max' mode it should shut the water off and recirculate which should give you that little more cool.   

[7gen]

Yes, it is a convertible. Things flex, also, leading to various squeaks/rattles.

The one area that could use some work is where the top of the quarter windows touch the roof rail weatherstripping. There is a small gap there, which I've since found out can be alleviated by a new bushing kit for the roof mechanism. I've worked pretty hard at getting the windows adjusted so that the quarter windows and the door windows meet and the door window lays right along the rubber on the quarter window. Lots of time spent getting the inboard/outboard adjustment right.

It is pretty water-tight. Those little areas that I want to fix up on the quarter window/roof weatherstripping are pretty small. I've been in the rain and no drips inside the cabin. However, that is an area for air leakage so I'll be putting in that bushing kit and seeing if that helps.

I've kind of focused on the mode door seals as needing some attention in my quest for cooling. I will also check on the water valve. The programmer is moving through its full range so that's not the problem. The VIR is getting all frosty so I have the refrigeration part fixed. I think it is just a question of doing as you say - fixing the leakages of warm air into the system. I need to figure out the recirculation of air - if I'm always having to cool 90 degree air, I won't get too far. Need to know the recirculation pattern.

[bcroe]

I went with a Sanden compressor and the Old Air kit.   When my control system was in in a working mood it seemed to cool fine.   I also went to an aftermarket condenser so the whole combination of condenser, Sanden compressor, and Old Air eliminator kit could be why I seem to be getting good performance out of my system.   In my research I did not find anyone else that had changed all 3 pieces so that could be the key to my apparent success.   People that just did one or two of those items did seem to get mixed results.

For all I know it could be cycling every second and will explode next time I walk past it.  Remember in my case this is a Sanden compressor.   An A6 could be completely different.

Notes on the Old Air kit:     

The manifold dodad thing that comes out of the center of the canister rotates so you can position it wherever it needs to be.   When I did mine I never saw any note of that.   The way it was always pictured looked like it would work for me so I was surprised when opened the box and it was oriented a different way that would not work.   I was actually on hold with their tech line to see if there was a different model that pointed the other direction and was just fiddling with it when I put enough pressure on it that it moved.

The seal used for that rotating feature apparently doesn't work with vacuum so the system will not hold vacuum for extended periods.   Seems to hold pressure just fine and since that is what its normally doing it seems to work.

I had to slightly modify the bracket that holds the can.   By modify I don't mean cutting or drilling.   I think what I did was got a much longer screw and some nuts to create a stud and spacer sort of thing to allow the original clamp to accommodate the larger diameter.   I think I had to slightly bend the new screw to give it a bit if a curve and align with the original holes.  The original screw is zip tied to the VIR assembly so if its ever needed I will know where it is.

My lines were all new and custom so I can't say how or if it would work with OE style lines.  I believe they claim its supposed to work with stock lines but that could be for 75% of the GM models,  there always seemed to be some oddballs out there.     

What refrigerant was used in the Sanden compressor and the Old Air kit?  They
manage to connect up easily to your OEM condenser and evaporator?  I am
considering trying this if my A6 system blows up.  My R4 systems haven't been
too much trouble, aside from constantly loosing their charge.  That may be
related to the old hoses; new high density hoses are on the list.  Bruce Roe

[TJ Hopland]

My system is 134a.   I think Old Air and others sell a customized Sanden that is made to be a direct replacement for a A6.   The stock Sanden (what i have) connections are externally threaded nipples coming off the side of the rear plate so nothing like any stock system I have ever seen.   I have not noticed any kits for R4's but have never looked either.   Just like the A6 in its day I know many other brands and types of equipment used them so I would think there could be a market for updates/conversions for them.   The issue with the R4 tends to be mounting space.   It was so flat most of the time they stuffed it in front of something so you can't fit anything deeper in the same location.   When GM went to the H6 around 96 they had to completely re arrange all the accessories.  Some cases that was where they started stuffing the compressor down next to the oil pan.   

I did custom hoses.  I found a local shop that had it all in stock.    They looked at my layout and sold me the various fittings and raw hose.   I took it all home got it all routed and trimmed how I wanted and marked the orientation of the fittings to the hoses and brought it back so they could crimp them.   Before I found that shop my plan was to buy the stuff online and then find a hydraulic shop that could do the crimps.  Apparently the aftermarket AC stuff is the same as hydraulic stuff so any shop with a decent die set for their machine should be able to do it.   You just have to find one that is willing to crimp stuff they didn't sell.

[bcroe]

Thanks; likely they also have an R12 version.  I have ignored the AC systems
here since I stopped driving to the coast (all of them) so much, and R12 has
been such a problem/expense. 

Back when there were add on AC systems for 60s cars, the hoses could just
be put on with a special screw hose clamp, maybe add a little of that blue
refrigerant "pipe joint" compound.  I did a few.  Bruce Roe

[TJ Hopland]

I remember seeing cars/systems that had hose clamps and blue stuff.   I thought that was just some sort of diy hack, didn't know it was a semi official thing.   AC didn't used to be a 'requirement' in my climate so there probably wasn't as much of those systems here as there was in other areas.   

I does seem like the proper clamps and fittings could work.   Ac in theory doesn't get over what 300 psi?   Its not like hydraulics that could be 3000 where you could see a crimp being required.   

[chrisntam]

I remember seeing cars/systems that had hose clamps and blue stuff.   I thought that was just some sort of diy hack, didn't know it was a semi official thing.   AC didn't used to be a 'requirement' in my climate so there probably wasn't as much of those systems here as there was in other areas.   

I does seem like the proper clamps and fittings could work.   Ac in theory doesn't get over what 300 psi?   Its not like hydraulics that could be 3000 where you could see a crimp being required.

Back in the '80s when I worked at an auto parts store, we sold a/c fittings (AC Delco) with the clamps that had an arm on them for proper placement over the barbs of the aluminum fitting.  Had 'em on my car back in the day.  They worked fine, but didn't look that great....

Oh yeah, we sold R-12 for $0.69 a can too.   

[TJ Hopland]

Now that you mention it I remember those arms too.   I don't remember seeing them in parts stores but did see them on cars.

[bcroe]

Now that you mention it I remember those arms too.   I don't remember
seeing them in parts stores but did see them on cars.

I'll see if I can find one for a picture.  Bruce Roe