Rebuilt 1964 429 Won't run !!!!

[rustytractor]

If I had an end to my tether I reached it yesterday and snapped it today !!

Around 2 years ago the engine in my Coupe de Ville started running rough - it still ran but I believe one cylinder had a problem so the engine needed an overhaul. To be honest I can't recall exactly what problems we found but we've rebuilt the engine from the crank up with new everything. The heads were overhauled and hardened valve seats fitted. The bores were checked and were ok so were just honed, new pistons, rings, lifters, cam, water/oil pumps, timing gear set etc etc, Basically everything other than the block is new.

Where you're in England parts can be expensive so it takes a while to get everything over here economically, this is then slowed down when parts are incorrectly supplied or are faulty out of the box (we all know the feeling). Anyway, I digress....

We finally got the engine back in the car at the beginning of the week and attempted to start it on wednesday but it wouldn't run. We felt that the carb was the problem so took the carb off, stripped it down, cleaned it and fitted an overhaul kit. Once fitted back on the car I cranked it for maybe 10-15 seconds before it primed with fuel and then the engine started and ran as sweet as anything - it idled really evenly and the few times I raised the revs in preparation for the cam break in it was totally responsive and very lively. I'm aware of the recommended 15-20 minutes at 1500-2000rpm Cam break in procedure but almost imediately we noticed a water leak from the crossover pipe so shut the engine off until we could sort this the following day.

This is where this will become a bit rambling - sorry in advance.

Yesterday we fixed the leak and went to restart the engine but it would not start. We spent the day checking everything but no luck. I found that the carb was flooding because I'd used the fibre washers for the needle seats in the kit that looked the same thickness as the old ones - I replaced them with the thicker type. No more flooding but still wouldn't run. The car has a pertronix and a flame thrower coil fitted - the spark was really strong. Checked and rechecked the timing which was fine. Plenty of fuel coming up to the carb. The only thing I hadn't rechecked was compression - bear in mind that the engine had run perfectly and was only shut off due to the water leak.

At some point during trying to get the damn thing to start I noticed that there was no spark at the plugs - it looked like the pertronix had given up the ghost so I assumed it had been on the way out and had coincidentally died suddenly. I replaced this with a new set of points and condensor, initial setting for the points was around 17 thou and the dwell would have been adjusted once the engine was up and running. It still won't start.

I eventually did a compression test and found readings as follows:-
Cylinder    PSI
1               50
2               50
3               90
4               40
5               120
6               70
7               90
8               80

What I'm struggling with here is the fact that it ran perfectly for a few minutes - with compression figures like these I doubt that it would have but what could have changed between shutting it off and restarting it the following day ?

I haven't as yet pulled anything else apart, preferring to ask other Cadillac owners for their advice first. I can see no reason why rings would have snapped, head gaskets would have blown on both sides or valves would have stuck open reducing compression. All we did was switch it off and try to start it again the following morning.

I'm kind of losing the will to live here so please, tell me I'm an idiot for doing xyz wrong but help me to get it to run again !

PLEASE HELP - AAAARRRGGGGHHHHHHH !!!!!!!

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Those compression readings are somewhat worrying, but in their defense, without the rings being bedded in, this could be a reason.

But, I would check with a squirt of oil in the cylinders to temporarily seal the top rings, and take another set of readings.

If the readings are the same or similar, I would be looking deeper.

As for the ignition, I cannot assist.

BUT, having done what you have done, there cannot be much wrong, except that once the engine starts with new Cam and Lifters, the engine should be immediately brought up to 2,500 RPM, and held there, whilst observing the whole thing for leaks, and the like, especially monitoring the temp and oil pressure, as any slow idling will destroy the Cam Lobes/Lifters.

The most critical time in a Cams' life is the first couple of minutes.   The oil has to get into the pores of the cam, and lifters to create slipicity.

Bruce.

PS.   One thing I do when firing up a newly rebuilt engine is have the owner nowhere nearby, as it horrifies them to see their baby "thrashed".

[rustytractor]

Those compression readings are somewhat worrying, but in their defense, without the rings being bedded in, this could be a reason.

But, I would check with a squirt of oil in the cylinders to temporarily seal the top rings, and take another set of readings.

If the readings are the same or similar, I would be looking deeper.

As for the ignition, I cannot assist.

BUT, having done what you have done, there cannot be much wrong, except that once the engine starts with new Cam and Lifters, the engine should be immediately brought up to 2,500 RPM, and held there, whilst observing the whole thing for leaks, and the like, especially monitoring the temp and oil pressure, as any slow idling will destroy the Cam Lobes/Lifters.

The most critical time in a Cams' life is the first couple of minutes.   The oil has to get into the pores of the cam, and lifters to create slipicity.

Bruce.

PS.   One thing I do when firing up a newly rebuilt engine is have the owner nowhere nearby, as it horrifies them to see their baby "thrashed".

I agree 100% with your break in recommendation BUT what can you do other than stop when you see a leak ?

The compression does increase across the board when oil is squirted into each cylinder so I, like you, assume this is a bedding in issue but until I can get the bugger to run again there's not a lot I can do about it.

Where next is the question.

[V63]

If adding oil to cylinder increases compression, it's a likely a ring issue.

So forget the following!

When first starting an engine, I try and use marvel mystery oil in the fuel. 2oz per 5 gallons. This lubricates the guides and rings...upper cylinder.

Are you SURE the fuel is not stale? It can cause the valves to stick or bind  in the guides (like sugar in the gas)  You can try and take the valve covers off and assertively 'tap' on each valve to sense that there is free movement in the guides. Maybe squirt oil on each stem while you are there.

With stale fuel typically it will allow the engine to run just fine... But its upon attempted restart , after cool down ...that the valves are stuck or sticking in the guides. Slow action would cause low compression.

I've had sticking valves cause a miss or more...and adding lubricant to the fuel it instantly clears up.

[Bobby B]

I eventually did a compression test and found readings as follows:-
Cylinder    PSI
1               50
2               50
3               90
4               40
5               120
6               70
7               90
8               80

Those are not only low readings, but more concern regarding the parameters of the readings. If you were getting say 50 across the board, at least it's consistent and within reason. You say the bores were Ok... Were they checked for the correct taper? Concentric? Were they all consistent before you Honed them? Were they checked with a professional dial bore gauge like a Sunnen/ Mitutoyo, etc? Did you use the correct Hone Finish ( Ball/ Stone/Grit) for the type of Rings you're running? Did you gap the rings correctly according to the manufacturer's specs? Did you stagger the rings correctly following the manufacturer's spec? I stopped having stuff honed 25 years ago.To me, it's a Band-Aid that will get you by for a while, but it's not long term. It's actually more risky than boring/ honing. I'd rather get the bores up to spec, before I wasted my time and money assembling an engine only to find out there's a problem. You might have to break it down again and check it out in more detail. I highly doubt that your water leak had anything to do with the problem. Over-cranking/rich mixture will wash your rings down and cause problems on start-up/ cam break in. I always use a carburetor that was previously running perfectly on break-in, just to eliminate that issue. Flat Tappet cams are a PITA, and a lot can go wrong while trying to start an engine after a rebuild. Good advice on the MMO on start-up. It's an old trick that racers used to seat the rings quickly. I've had great luck following that tip. Keep us posted and Good Luck! 
                                                            Bobby

[J. Gomez]

Russell,

I’m not by any means an expert on the 429, so I could well be way off track and not sure if the same issue below would be applicable to the 429. 

I know with new parts they are not manufacture to the same specs as the original OEMs. That is the case with the 365 cam shaft from several suppliers having the “dowel” for the cam sprocket place 90 degree off from the correct placement.   

The bores were checked and were ok so were just honed, new pistons, rings, lifters, cam, water/oil pumps, timing gear set etc etc, Basically everything other than the block is new.

Not sure if you also replace the cam with a new one or re-used the original one.

Cylinder    PSI
1               50
2               50
3               90
4               40
5               120
6               70
7               90
8               80

I would agree with other above these reading are way off from a fresh rebuild engine, so something is not right opening and/or closing at the wrong time.

Again, if you replace the cam shaft with a new one it may be something to check or as I stated above I could be way off track. 

Good luck..!

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I agree 100% with your break in recommendation BUT what can you do other than stop when you see a leak ?

When a leak is detected, and requiring immediate fixing, one should simply turn the ignition off, at the high revs, and let the engine idle down before turning off.

Attend to the leak, and restart the engine, going immediately to the 2,500 RPM.

Bruce.

[Dave Shepherd]

If you have spark and, correct timing all around, even with those very low compression readings you should get at least an attempt to start or a stutter..  I would do a leak down test to try and pinpoint the low compression, but it sure sounds like it will have to come apart. You did remove the ridges at the top of bores, correct?

[V63]

I might try a tablespoon of thick Lucas oil stabilizer in each cylinder. That should increase the compression for starting. It's going to smoke like everything! Once started it should keep running during break in.

[savemy67]

Hello Russell,

What values did you get when you did the second compression test with oil?  Your post mentions you got an across the board increase, but by how much?

I suggest the simplest tasks first.  Take a day or two off, and spend that time devising a diagnostic plan based on low compression and no spark after new points were installed.

Does the distributor rotate when the engine cranks?  Was the distributor cap seated correctly (please don't take this as an insult, but simple things should not be overlooked).  A test lamp can help determine that the points are working correctly.  The lamp will illuminate brightly when the distributor is rotated through the points break.

If the distributor checks out OK, the next step I would consider would be to remove the valve covers, ground the ignition so the engine won't start (accidentally), and crank the engine while observing each valve.  Ideally, if you have a dial indicator, you could set it to measure the travel of the valves at the valve spring retainer.  Divide this measurement by the rocker arm ratio, and see if the quotient matches the cam lift specification in the shop manual.  This procedure will provide a good indication of the condition of the camshaft and lifters, but not timing.  A more positive variant of this procedure is to remove the lifters and set your dial indicator on the cam lobes, eliminating any issue with the lifters not being pumped up.  Alternatively, you could do a leak-down test, but this won't tell you much about the cam or lifters - only if a valve(s) is open.  However, a leak-down test will tell you how well the rings are sealing.

Usually, an engine will not start due to lack of fuel, ignition, or compression.  Since your compression readings and ignition are suspect, start the diagnosis with the mechanical components related to compression and ignition, as suggested in the procedures above.  Another item to check is the timing chain.  If you can obtain an inspection camera, you could remove the distributor and see if the timing chain is still connected to the cam sprocket - and check the distributor at the same time.  Obviously, if your distributor rotates when checking it as described above, your timing chain is attached, but it may have jumped some teeth (although unlikely).

If your valves have the correct lift, and a leak-down test shows the valves to be sealing, then you should get combustion even with low compression - if the distributor is getting spark to the plugs.  You may have an issue with the distributor and compression.  Either of which could be due to a broken part.  Regardless, after running well for a few minutes initially, and being dead on a second attempt at starting, something failed.  You should be able to find the broken component with a methodical diagnosis.

I have torn out my hair several times when encountering problems like this.  For me, stepping away from the frustration can be helpful, which is why I suggested you take off a day or two.  I hope you are able to resolve the problem with minimal expense, but realize that you were dependent on others for parts, machine work, etc, so some things were out of your control.  Good luck.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Fuel was mentioned briefly, but only once.
Do you have a fresh fuel supply? I know you fixed a flooding issue, but did you create another one? Did you pull the carb? Gasket back on? Did you leave a rag stufeed in the manifold?
What about fuel filters? Do you have one in the carb? It is possible crap broke loose in the line and plugged something up. Do you have fuel in the cylinders? Working on the carb so something could have been messed up/left off there. Anything with just a shot of starting fluid?
Check and recheck everything around the leak repair.
Do you have 12 volts at the coil while cranking? 7 or so with the key on but a full 12 while cranking. Have you hot wired it to he sure of your voltage at the coil?
Sorry to ask such simple questions, but something happened during your repair and it is probably something simple that has been overlooked.  I get that way sometimes- I forget to look at the simple things when I am flustered.
Jeff

[rustytractor]

Thank you for all of your responses - as I originally said I'd rather find out I've done something stupid than go round in circles.

I'll give a general reply rather than responding to individual posts.

The machine work was done by a regularly used and trusted shop. They checked the bores and told me they were fine and only needed honing - I didn't ask how they checked them as there seemed no need to at the time.

Hands up - I didn't consider if the fuel was stale. It was only when writing the post last night that it hit me how long had passed. Time goes by so fast it's easy to ignore how much has slipped away. That said, if the valves had stuck wouldn't at least one have stuck open enough to give zero compression? The compression in each cylinder increased by at least 40psi when adding a squirt of oil except the one showing 120 went to 150

Definitely have spark, the voltages to the coil are 12v and approx. 9v respectively. I did try jumping 12v direct to the coil. I also replaced the coil when switching to points in case the 0.6 ohm flamethrower was either faulty or incompatible. Is this flamethrower coil ok to use with points?

When the carb flooded fuel was evident around the top gasket and the carb looked wet (this only happened the one time that the engine ran, not subsequently when it didn't run). Soon after the first time it wouldn't start i removed the inlet manifold to make sure it wasn't obstructed or flooded due to the prior carb issue but it wasn't. The only thing different about the first time when the engine ran and subsequent starting attempts was that initially the carb was dry and pumped up just before starting.

I replaced the fuel filters in the carb and the fuel bowl. I've tried using Easy Start just in case there was a fuel supply problem.

There was minimal crap in the carb when I took it apart - far less detritus in the fuel bowls than in almost any other carb I've taken apart. This carb ran fine when the engine was last used, I only bought the overhaul kit in case of future problems. The flooding problem only occurred because I fitted the wrong fibre washers BUT the engine ran that one time with the incorrect washers fitted.

It appears that compression is the key here but it ran so well that first time until the water leak make me shut the engine off it makes very little sense. Even if the cam and lifters are toast because the break in cycle couldn't be completed the lobes only wear down causing the valves to not open fully, not stay open (in my simple mind anyway).

So:-
The compression is low but it ran great once.
The valves wouldn't appear to be stuck because I have compression on every cylinder which increases with a shot of oil
I have spark
Easy start or fuel makes no difference
There's no obstruction in the inlet manifold
Timing is fine - it ran with the distributor exactly where it as (other than minor adjustments)
The cap and plug leads are new and in the correct firing order (checked and rechecked plus it ran as is)
The carb is squirting fuel in and no longer flooding
Etc etc etc

Obviously I'll take everything said here on board and will check each point raised through in turn and see what transpires although this may not be straight away as I'm out of time to work on this for a week or so - I will try to find some time if possible.

Alternatively does anyone want a beautiful white 64 coupe de Ville complete with all manuals, pre-purchase letters to/from Cadillac and the original owner (who had it until 1997), almost if not every conceivable factory option?

It's runs beautifully - but only once 😫

[Steve Passmore]

I think that's just a case of the carb flooding and washing all oil out the cylinders causing low compression.  Low compression will prevent starting and also wet-up the plugs. Pileing in more 'Easy start' will compound the problem.  Some plugs stay fouled up once wet. Try a new set.

[rustytractor]

I think that's just a case of the carb flooding and washing all oil out the cylinders causing low compression.  Low compression will prevent starting and also wet-up the plugs. Pileing in more 'Easy start' will compound the problem.  Some plugs stay fouled up once wet. Try a new set.

Makes sense but I tried that yesterday, both before and after oiling the cylinders. I think I got a small cough when spinning it over but nothing more.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

If you blow shop air in the plug holes and have a hiss up the carb then your intake is open. If out the exhaust pipe then it is exhaust. If the valve covers are off and it blows up the springs then it is guides and if it blows out the breather/pcv then it is rings.
However my little mind says what I think yours does.... it ran until YOU shut it off. Something happened at your repair.
Getting down to basics I almost suggest you do a dry run on your repair. In other words do it again and see what you had to remove or move to get it done.
Just a thought.
Good luck.
Jeff

[V63]

I would switch the coil back to original because depending on which Pertronix you used (red modual or black)...they use a different OHM coil. This could be your problem.

General information: I ALWAYS sniff the fuel on a months idle car to verify it is fresh! I do not know if alcohol is used in the fuel there...but if any of it came from USA...be suspect. If it's stale...it has a strong, distinctive sweet stench. Often it is volatile enough to run if primed with good gas...but hard starting otherwise. Then it gums up the valve guides, usually the next start up after cool down. I do not try to dilute it any more...it's like cancer, I just drain it out. It's usually much more yellow in color too.

[rustytractor]

I would switch the coil back to original because depending on which Pertronix you used (red modual or black)...they use a different OHM coil. This could be your problem.

I swapped the flamethrower coil for a standard coil when I removed the pertronix as a precaution against incompatibility. You've answered my question about this so thanks 👍🏻

I'll try either running it from a can or draining the fuel and starting with fresh stuff as this sounds like a strong possibility. The "start once but not a second time" scenario is pretty much what happened here and we quite possibly used Easy Start the first start up when the engine was initially dry of fuel.
Ethanol is used here but I believe it's not as prevalent as in the states. 

If this is the cause I'll be one happy bunny who'll have learnt a lesson that's for sure.

[Jason Edge]

I rebuilt may 429 5 years ago and the main thing I am not reading here, is whether or not the engine was primed. I primed mine on the engine stand and just before cranking to make sure it was saturated with oil. I used a a cordless drill, extension and 12mm socket to run the oil pump gear with distributor removed. Priming on the engine stand beforehand gave me an idea of how long it would take to push oil up thru the engine.  There is special break-in lubricant used to coat the camshaft, lifters, and bearings for rebuilt engines and if this was applied, I doubt you damaged the cam lobes or lifters. I would be concerned if the engine was just started dry and was not primed with oil.

You can see priming the engine on the stand at this link:  http://youtu.be/IGqogwKV9FU

You can seen the engine being primed and cranked for the 1st time after the rebuilt at this link: https://youtu.be/6pD5JGO4iGg

[fishnjim]

I'm in the it's a wet plug/spark/fuel ratio issue.   
Reasoning; It ran, so the low compression, etc is secondary.  Timing is OK.   
The carb(air/fuel) may not be set properly and if the plugs get wet or carboned over, it's game over for spark.   It'll spark outside the cylinder, but not inside.   And it only takes a "once", to ruin new plugs again.   Pull the plugs and spray with non-chlorinated brake cleaner and make sure they're dry and no carbon.  Check gaps.   I check each wire with a induction timing light to make sure its firing.   
Screw the carb adjusting screws all the way in, then back out about 1 1/2 turns for starters.
If you had good spark with the pertronix, the chance of that going wrong is less than with the points change.  It'll give you better spark than the points.   Put back.   
Don't rush into changing things until you're sure they are the cause.   It's a training and perseverance thing.   Leaving out the rotor or not installing correctly is a most common thing in this vintage.
3 Things to remember.   
Gasoline will burn in air only in a range of concentration and if it's too rich or too lean, it won't burn.   
It takes a certain energy spark to ignite the mixture, more is OK but less is not.   
As compression goes up requires more spark energy and more difficult to jump the gap.(less gap)   
So if it's going to fire, it'll fire easier at the low compression.   That's the principle of a cylinder unloader to make high compression easier to start.   
After it's broke in, then worry about the compression variance.   

[Bobby B]

I rebuilt may 429 5 years ago and the main think I am not reading here, is whether or not the engine was primed. I primed mine on the engine stand and just before cranking to make sure it was saturated with oil. I used a a cordless drill, extension and 12mm socket to run the oil pump gear with distributor removed. Priming on the engine stand beforehand gave me an idea of how long it would take to push oil up thru the engine.  There is special break-in lubricant used to coat the camshaft, lifters, and bearings for rebuilt engines and if this was applied, I doubt you damaged the cam lobes or lifters. I would be concerned if the engine was just started dry and was not primed with oil.

Jason,
Good Point....Not only should it have break-in Lube on all the valvetrain/cam parts, you should also have break-in oil in the crankcase. If the engine sits for some time, the lube eventually drips off and winds up in the oil pan and does no good.  And as you pointed out, the engine should be primed beforehand. I always prime and leave a remote and accurate gauge attached when priming AND on break-in, so I can monitor what's going on. Those first few minutes are crucial with a new engine. Starting an engine without monitoring or knowing what the oil pressure is, would be a scary thought and very risky.
                  Bobby