News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

New valve lifer bodies ruined by faulty installation

Started by z3skybolt, December 29, 2017, 11:51:18 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

z3skybolt

Gents,

After a lengthy and very expensive overhaul of my 1940 Cadillac 346 engine I was left with noisy lifters when the engine was warmed up. I chose to purchase a new set of lifters from Terrill for $800.00. My re-builder agreed to absorb the labor cost of installation.  He installed the new lifters improperly which resulted in valves remaining open as he cranked the engine for 45 sec. or so trying to start it.  Upon removal of the new lifters 12 of the 16 were badly scored on the bottom and cannot be returned for credit.

The original lifters were reinstalled and chatter away now....warm or cold engine.  I am very concerned that the cam was damaged in the process and more worried about the cam than the noisy lifters.  To make matters worse...my middle son was examining the new lifter bodies during our Christmas visit when he pointed out to me that the edges of the lifter bodies....the  outside edge of the lifter base ....was also scored on a dozen of the bodies.  Groves are scratched into the edges all around the sides. Multiple groves.  At first I could not imagine how the groves were made around the outside as the lifter bodies moved with the cam lobes.  Then it struck me that the only way those groves could have been made was a result of scraping the edge of the lifter lobe next to the lifter body...as it worked up, down and was rotated by the cam action.

Previously I had inspected the old lifters which had been reinstalled  during the overhaul and run over 600 miles.  The old, noisy lifters did not have any scratches on the edges even after 600 miles of driving.

Now I am even more concerned that my cam was damaged and that the $12,000.00+ overhaul will have to be redone.   My engine starts easily, runs smoothly and powerfully...we even drove it 15 miles after the old noisy lifters were reinstalled. But I do not plan to run the engine again until the valve train is inspected and possibly repaired.   How is it possible that the lifter body scraped the side of the cam lobes?   What else could have caused the groves?  Any thoughts?

I took photos of the lifter bodies.... but cannot get my computer to upload them for some reason.

Bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

TJ Hopland

I don't know that engine at all,  what keeps the cam from floating front to back?  Is there a retainer of some sort or some sort of button?  Or just the chain/ gears?

How do you install a lifter improperly that results in valves staying open?  Seems like they would have to be a different height than the originals and the lash wasn't checked?   Are these solid or hydraulic?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

35-709

1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Steve Passmore

Bob, the lifter bodies are supposed to rotate during their action, they would do this when the pressure of the cam lobe is off them, this is normal but with the valve staying open all the time when they try to turn they would still be under massive pressure from the cam lobe and this would cause the scoring. They were never able to turn freely.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

z3skybolt

#4
Steve,

I understand how and why the bottoms of the bodies were scored by the cam lobe. But I am also talking about the outer edge of the base of the lifter bodies.  It extends out somewhat beyond the tall vertical part of the lifter body...sort of like the brim of a tall hat.  That outer edge of the brims are scored and has groves all around the outer edge.  How, what scored that?

Perhaps I don't understand the mechanical action that causes the lifter body to rotate. I thought that it was the shape of the cam lobe acting on the base of the lifter?  Is there some mechanical contact on the outer edge of the lifter base/rim?

I am posting a picture of an assembled valve body and lifter as I am not good at describing my concern. I am unable to upload and post a picture of the damage along the edge.  This is an older picture that does not show the damage I am trying describe....just the shape of which you are already familiar.

Actually I just discovered that if you click on to this picture and expand it dramatically then the scoring on the brim does become visible. Just coincidence that the picture also shows the damage.






1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Steve Passmore

Oh, I see what you mean. I can't imagine what touches that outer edge? should not be anything really.  Are you absolutely sure they weren't like that from the beginning? Just poor machining process? It shouldn't really matter if they don't touch anything when assembled.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

z3skybolt

Steve,

I cannot swear that they were all smooth before being installed as I never even noticed the side scoring until it was pointed out by my son.  I can attest that the scoring varies and 4 of them are still smoothly polished.  I can only hope that you are correct in suggesting poor machining.

They were crammed in so tight before the starting attempt that the lifter springs were severely compressed and distorted. One wonders if this may have caused a slight shift in the lifter body that allowed them to come in contact with the rotating cam lobe edge next to it. I have no idea if there is that much gap within the lifter blocks(tubes) themselves to allow a slight shift or how much clearance there is between a lifter body base and it's neighboring rotating cam lobe.

It is my hope to have someone tear into the valve train next month and inspect the cam.  That should tell us of any damage to the lobes themselves either on the tip or edges.  You haven't any idea of the space between lifter bottoms and the neighbor cam lobe  edge do you?  If the spacing is rather large I cannot imagine enough "shift" caused by excessive compression to cause the base and lobe edge to contact.

Just trying to ease my mind or anticipate much damage as I await a future inspection.

Thank you for your intricate knowledge.

Bob






1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Barry M Wheeler #2189

Hi, I'm enough of a mechanic to know that the distance between the lifter and the cam is 3.0 inches. You probably know this as well, as it was mentioned within the last two weeks on the Forum. I made a tool to slip the lifter holder in out of  thin sheet tin. I cut it to match the length of the cast iron piece and then peened the top edge over about 3/8" to give something to tap on and also not cut your hand.

There was enough slack to tap the tool between the top of the lifter and the cam and when it was started and more or less in place to tap it back out. It's been years since I did this and I must have done it "right" as Jeff Hansen drove the car from Delaware to DC to the GN this summer and I don't think he had to mess with the lifters again. (And this was all used stuff.)

It's too bad you had the problem on new items. We'll be thinking of you as you try to figure out what went wrong.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

Bob,
I suggest you call Terril on Tuesday. Ask them to look at their stock of new bodies & check what the edges look like.
Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

z3skybolt

Thank you Bob,

I have talked with Feltz several times. He has been very patient and helpful...including explaining to my mechanic how to remove and replace the lifters while the engine was still in the car. I will consider calling him about the scoring on the edges of the lifter base.  Thanks Bob for your input.

Barry. I understand the spacing of 3 inches between the cam and the lifters.  My concern here may be one of ignorant imagination....but I am wondering about the distance between the side of the lifter base edge and the edge of the  neighboring cam lobe...the horizontal space.  As the only thing that could score the side of the lifter base while in operation is the edge of the cam lobe next to it.  If that horizontal space is great enough then there is no way that the edge of a lifter lobe could score the side of the lifter base when the cam rotates...even if the lifter body was squeezed sideways a bit..  It is my hope that the space is too great for that to happen.

My issue is not with the quality of the new lifters....but my mechanic who professed to be an expert and was far from it when it came to the valve train of this engine.

If Feltz says that their is machine scoring on some of his new lifters...then I can forget about my concern. I appreciate all of you trying to help a novice life myself....who may be "barking up a tree".

Thanks,

bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Bobby B

Quote from: z3skybolt on December 29, 2017, 07:45:30 PM
Barry. I understand the spacing of 3 inches between the cam and the lifters.  My concern here may be one of ignorant imagination....but I am wondering about the distance between the side of the lifter base edge and the edge of the  neighboring cam lobe...the horizontal space.  As the only thing that could score the side of the lifter base while in operation is the edge of the cam lobe next to it.  If that horizontal space is great enough then there is no way that the edge of a lifter lobe could score the side of the lifter base when the cam rotates...even if the lifter body was squeezed sideways a bit..  It is my hope that the space is too great for that to happen.bob

Bob Ritchie, Bob Hoffmann, Barry, Steve, and all other concerned parties.....
  Are you sure the Cam didn't walk out front due to the 2 thrust plate bolts loosening up, or becoming loose due to forgetting to torque to spec, and/or forgetting completely? There is mucho space between the mushroom base as shown in my pictures. Am I the only one that documents every damn thing!  ;D ;D ;D
                   Bobby
I will clear this up with a few pictures if this helps....
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Bobby B

Quote from: z3skybolt on December 29, 2017, 10:52:47 PM
Bob,

That too is a fear that I have conjured up. Makes sense.  That would be a way for the lobes to score the lifters.  Eventually and many dollars later I may know.

Bob

Bob,
Look past the obvious and find out the cause. You might have to break the motor down again and start over as we discussed. It's not a big deal, but don't go changing things until you find out what caused this. You'll find it, trust me...
                                                                                                              Bobby.
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

z3skybolt

#12
Bob,

That too is a fear that I have conjured up. Makes sense.  That would be a way for the lobes to score the lifters.  Eventually and many dollars later I may know.

Bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Steve Passmore

After checking a dismantled engine in the shop last night I am inclined to agree with what Bobby B is suggesting. There is no way the bodies can catch the lobe next to it unless the cam rides out front. I wanted to dismiss the possibility of anyone not installing the cam and it's front retaining plate properly but reading about all the other stuff this mechanic did not get right it is a major concern. I think loose retaining plate bolts would be making a noise on the cam gear so was the plate ever fitted!!!
Me? after hearing all this. I would have that motor out just for the peace of mind.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

I am very unqualified to answer your question. So much so that I hesitated in posting this. But, those who know me will say I am never without an opinion so here goes....
What if it really was the installation? Could the marks have been made by the shop installing/removing them with a pair of pliers? If they were stuck in the bore he would have had to get them out/put them in somehow. He was already not getting paid to redo this so he may have just wanted to get the job done and simply didn't care. Then when he had to redo it again, he may have just yanked them out.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

harry s

I agree with you Bobby about the spacing of the lifters, it would take a lot of movement for the lifter body to hit the next lobe. Jeff, you have a good point about the mechanic (?) using pliers to force the lifters in place or remove. The thing that strikes me is the fact that the valves were all open at once. It is hard enough to install the lifter block when the clearances are proper much less trying to raise the valve and install the lifters. The consensus of opinion seems to be to recheck the entire valve train starting with the cam and its installation.      Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

Bobby B

Quote from: harry s on December 30, 2017, 11:45:02 AM
It is hard enough to install the lifter block when the clearances are proper much less trying to raise the valve and install the lifters. The consensus of opinion seems to be to recheck the entire valve train starting with the cam and its installation.      Harry

Harry,
Hi. All who know these engines have had to wiggle those lifter blocks in, due to the clearance issues and how tight they are. I can't imagine the frustration of someone having a valve stem too long, therefore shortening the space between the heel of the cam and the tip of the stem. I would think at that point you would stop and maybe think that something wasn't right here and double check your work?
Jeff,
Hi. The lifter blocks go in as an assembly so I don't know what you would be using a pair of pliers for. You put them together on a bench and the actual lifters are held in from falling through by a small clip. So when you go to install a full block of four (4) lifters, you just slide the whole block on an angle up and in. It is tight, but there are a few tricks to keep the valves fully open, so you can slide the block in very easily with no interference. Flathead guys know the tricks. I had my blocks mounted in a few minutes. It's like anything else if you know what you're doing.
  My biggest question here is why aren't you rotating the engine as you go along, after installing one block at a time just to make sure all feels smooth. Something is just definitely not right here, and it's got to be pretty obvious. I wish I was there to take a look. The problem is surely visible if you know what you're looking at. I must rotate an engine 101 times before I button it up. Micrometers, Dial indicators, and Calipers are a terrible thing to waste..... ;D
                                                                                                                                Bobby
P.S.  Happy New Year to All!
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Steve Passmore

My thoughts exactly Bobby, Wish I was there to have a look at it!
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Bobby B

Quote from: Steve Passmore on December 30, 2017, 12:25:39 PM
My thoughts exactly Bobby, Wish I was there to have a look at it!

Steve,
Let's go....We've been meaning to get together anyway. Now we have an excuse  ;D ;D ;D
                                                                                                           Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

z3skybolt

#19
Thanks Bobby, Steve and everyone,

All along I wondered if the cam had been pushed forward. But never having put one together I wasn't even sure how the cam was held in place.

I agree that the engine will have to be torn down...at least the entire valve train. The manual says that the cam can be removed while the engine is still in the car. Probably looking at a new cam, another set of lifters. gaskets etc. The "new" lifter bodies installed and removed are pretty well trashed.

Hopefully no further damage was done after the old lifters were reinstalled.  The engine ran maybe 25 minutes before the lifters were fully primed and got quiet.  Indeed the engine idled quietly at first. Then we took it for a 12/15 mile drive and the engine began to tick like before when warm.

The next morning when I started it to drive onto the trailer.... despite a cold engine it ticked the entire time.  When I got it home I idled it for 10 or 15 minutes twice to see if it would get quiet.  It stayed noisy all the time.  The engine was run about 1:15 all together and driven for maybe another 20 minutes. I have not driven it other than the test drive in Ohio and have not started the engine since the two idle efforts here at home.

If I had shop and place to work I'd buy an airline ticket to bring you guys here to look at it. But that isn't practical. Perhaps I can find a way to eventually bring the car out east.  I spent $3,400.00 having the engine removed and reinstalled. Hate to go through that again.  I will try to come up with something early in 2018.

I am getting an education. Thanks again.

Bob



1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.