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Zinc additive

Started by gkhashem, January 20, 2018, 02:12:18 PM

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gkhashem

Looking for opinions on Zinc additive for motor oils.

Is this needed or recommended for more recent cars. I have a 1991 Cadillac with a 4.9L, and as far as I can tell in 1991 there was more zinc in the oil then.

Any thoughts on this?
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

Caddyholic

Your engine has roller lifters so modern low zinc oil is fine. The issue with low zinc has to do with flat tapped cams not roller tapper cams.
I got myself a Cadillac but I can't afford the gasoline (AC/DC Down Payment Blues)

1961 Series 62 Convertible Coupe http://bit.ly/1RCYsVZ
1962 Coupe Deville

gkhashem

I guess the oil in 1991 was still being used in older engines so that makes sense.

Thanks
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

Carl Fielding

Hi , George ! I see you have many flat tappet engines in your fleet. That implies that many , probably most , are not daily drivers. The finest oil on the market for your cars is Amsoil Z-Rod. Proper levels of zinc and phosphorus , in perhaps the most Synthetic of all Synthetic oils. It is also specifically formulated for protection against corrosion during periods of lay up. Standard disclaimer : I have absolutely no affiliation whatsoever with Amsoil. I just use their superior products. Oh yeah , use their synthetic grease , also. Now if anyone can prove a better lubricant is available , I will drop the "A" quicker than I would a scorpion in my coffee cup. Check out the Z-Rod , buy in as bulk quantity as possible , and treat the entire fleet to the best. Scorpion oil and dinosaur lard just won't win their (to take wide liberty in paraphrasing) , "heart anymore".   - Carl

Jon S

#4
George -

Save yourself money on your older cars and add 1/2 container (8oz) of Red Line's Break In Oil. Has all the zinc and phosphorus you need at a reasonable price. Been using it for years with Pennzoil or Quaker State. You don't want to introduce synthetic oil to these cars.

Jon
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Lexi

#5
Yes the zinc additive debate again. While I don't have a definitive opinion on this, my experience tells me to stick with an oil that was manufactured with the necessary zinc et-al, all-included, rather than by supplementing another oil with it. Not saying that you won't get some protection by using additives, but I am not satisfied that the various valve saving particles will remain in adequate suspension to provide the protection needed. The best my '56 Caddy has ever sounded and ran was on Valvoline's VR1, 10W30 (non-synthetic), Racing Oil. It has zinc added. I believe they also offer a synthetic variant of this product for those who wish to follow Carl's synth lead (and perhaps try the Amsoil Z-Rod as well that he recommended). A few of us are using this Valvoline oil that we now affectionately call "Dinosaur Juice".  Yes, it is available on Amazon by the bottle or case yet it is cheaper to source locally. Seems to be one heck of a product. If it is good enough for a racing car engine I presume it will work well for us, especially as it is available in an acceptable viscosity grade. Like Carl, I have no vested interest in this product. So far, I would recommend this oil. I would not be adverse to learning about any negatives as we all want the best for our cars. Clay/Lexi

Jon S

#6
That's like saying Bardahl, Rislone, Lucas or STP dont mix with oil. Additives do mix with oil as do stop leak and enhancement products.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Lexi

Nope. I did not say or imply that. Only reference made was to zinc. I mentioned the "suspension" thing as I read somewhere that it may be an issue for the zinc additives. Other products were not discussed. Clay/Lexi

Dave Shepherd

There are some opinions out there that some of these additives seperate or don't mix at a molecular level, any roller cam and rockers engine is pretty much safe with modern oil. A broken in stock flat tappet engine with stock valve springs is less sensitive to  needing Zddp.

Carl Fielding

Quote from: Jon S on January 20, 2018, 09:22:19 PM
George -

You don't want to introduce synthetic oil to these cars.

Jon

Please defend this statement.   - CC

Bobby B

Quote from: lexi on January 20, 2018, 10:06:13 PM
The best my '56 Caddy has ever sounded and ran was on Valvoline's VR1, 10W30 (non-synthetic), Racing Oil. It has zinc added. A few of us are using this Valvoline oil that we now affectionately call "Dinosaur Juice". Seems to be one heck of a product. If it is good enough for a racing car engine I presume it will work well for us, especially as it is available in an acceptable viscosity grade.  So far, I would recommend this oil.

Clay,
  Before a lot of other brands were available regarding the Zinc content for older vehicles, I used the Valvoline on all my old cars...And Still Do. My cars seem to run really smooth and the 10W-30 is perfect for a newly rebuild engine. I don't like running heavier oils in any of my cars. I do like the Joe Gibbs Break-in oil, but after 500 miles it gets dumped and the Valvoline goes in. It's just personal preference as to what you like, and I happen to have had good luck running the VR1 oil with all the older flat tappet cam motors.

               Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Bobby B

Quote from: Carl Fielding on January 21, 2018, 12:54:54 AM
Please defend this statement.   - CC

In Jon's Defense, some good reading from Castrol....
                                                         Bobby

Is Synthetic Oil Safe in Vehicles?

In the past, warnings were given about switching to synthetic oil because it could harm the engine. The reason for this was that many synthetic oils contained esters, which are organic compounds mixed with alcohol. This combination was often hard on seals in the engine, and would cause them to wear down and start to leak.

Synthetic oil technology has improved over the years, and most cars on the road today should be able to use either synthetic or regular oil, so long as the proper weight is used. In fact, some new cars require synthetic oil. However, one exception is with older vehicles, especially those with high mileage. The seals in those engines may not be able to handle the additives in synthetic oil. However, that doesn't mean it's impossible to switch to synthetic in an older car.

Tips for Using Synthetic Oils in Older Models

When using the term “older” to refer to cars, it means those manufactured before 1990 or so. The risk with these models is that the seals, gaskets, and other components often aren’t as tight as with newer models. Because synthetic oil does a better job of cleaning out sludge, it could remove deposits that are acting as seals. This could result in leaks that cause the engine to burn oil and require you to monitor your oil levels and replace it more often. If you don't, you risk damaging the engine or other components.

It’s not accurate to say that you should never use synthetic oil in an older car. In fact, Castrol EDGE High Mileage is a synthetic oil designed specifically for high-mileage cars. If the car has been maintained and is in excellent running condition, the synthetic oil may protect the vehicle and prolong its life. Also, anytime you change from conventional oil to synthetic oil, always make sure to change the oil filter with every oil change.

Signs of Problems with Synthetic Oil in Older Cars

If you decide to switch to synthetic oil for your older car, talk to a professional technician first. They may want to check over your vehicle and make any necessary repairs or replacements before making the switch. This will help protect your older model vehicle and ensure its long life and continued performance.
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

The Tassie Devil(le)

The way I see it is that you can use Synthetic Oil in an old car, so long as the engine has been completely rebuilt, and thereby fitted with all new seals.

BUT, is it worth it with the high cost of Synthetic oils as against the limited mileage that the older cars are doing.   The "cut and thrust" of modern driving is a far cry from the cruising in the older vehicles, and full-flow filters didn't start till 1960 in Cadillacs, and back then, oil changes were every 1000 miles.   I wouldn't be wanting to change synthetic oils every 1000 miles.

One must remember that the Synthetic Oils were designed for the late model vehicles with their modern internals, which allow for longer intervals between oil changes.

Bruce. >:D

'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Jay Friedman

I recently switched to Brad Penn Break In oil in my '49.  Does anyone have an opinion?
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

walt chomosh #23510

When I first noticed that oil "changed"(low/no zinc), I struggled to get any info in regards as to why? I then purchased GM's genuine "breakin additive" and began to add it to my oil. Well, I pulled my oil pan for whatever reason and found gobs of it clinging to the bottom of my pan! The was the end of my GM additive and fortunately Valvoline (and others) came to the rescue and produced and promoted "racing oil". Problem solved......walt....tulsa,ok

Lexi

#15
Bobby thanks for the feedback! It is encouraging to hear positive comments on this Valvoline product. For those in the GTA who wish to purchase Valvoline VR1 (as well as many other quality lubricants), please visit Crescent Oil Company of Canada, 136 Cannon Street West, Hamilton, Ontario. Visiting this place is like stepping back in time and worth the visit for most gear-heads, (in business for over 100 years). You can purchase many products in bulk and they can order product for you that may not be on hand. Want Dexron Type III for your trany? It is here and you can buy it in bulk also. They advertise that they export to Europe as well. First ran across these guys who were set up at a classic car show, (I have no vested interest in this company). Yes they even had the VR1 in stock by the case. Recommended. Clay/Lexi

http://crescentoil.ca/

Bobby B

Quote from: Jay Friedman on January 21, 2018, 08:53:16 AM
I recently switched to Brad Penn Break In oil in my '49.  Does anyone have an opinion?

Break-in oil is for break-in. It's meant to be dumped shortly afterwards. I would call them and ask if it's harmful to use it as your full time main oil supply. They make other oils. Worth a phone call.
                                                                                                    Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Bobby B

Quote from: walt chomosh #23510 on January 21, 2018, 10:18:03 AM
When I first noticed that oil "changed"(low/no zinc), I struggled to get any info in regards as to why? I then purchased GM's genuine "breakin additive" and began to add it to my oil. Well, I pulled my oil pan for whatever reason and found gobs of it clinging to the bottom of my pan! The was the end of my GM additive and fortunately Valvoline (and others) came to the rescue and produced and promoted "racing oil". Problem solved......walt....tulsa,ok

Walt,
After reading so many articles over the years regarding this, it seems it doesn't play well with oils and SUPPOSEDLY......needs to be heated and pre-mixed with a little bit of the oil that you're using before adding it in, or it will kind of stay in suspension. I'm not an expert, just try to do my homework. I don't know why anyone would even bother with an additive when there are products available to meet your needs. I find that most additives could be labeled as "Snake-Oil" anyway.....
                                                                                                                                      Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

fishnjim

Not many here belong to SAE, where this is properly studied.   There are numerous studies on Zn.     Some are available online or excerpted.  Search.  {I no longer have access which I had through my employment with parent oil companies.(retired Chem E.)}   
For starters, here's an available good general oil article.   http://articles.sae.org/13555/

I suggest people study up on this before passing on their opinions.   

Dave Shepherd

#19
Great article, I have been using Gm break in additive in a 350 Sbc, and a 331  Hemi, had the pan off both, didn't see any sign of some kind oil separation, of course this is not proof of the effectiveness of the additive, both engines are stock rebuilds., Used Mobil 1 in my 426 all out race car and bearing life as expected.