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Rebuild of Hydro-Vac unit for '57

Started by Dan Koser, April 09, 2018, 01:33:07 PM

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Dan Koser

I found a place in National City, CA that rebuilds these brake power units @ $450. Taking mine down today.

Steve Bush, (619)474-8906.

Dave Shepherd

For us on the east coast, White Post restorations in Virginia.

johnregrus

#2
Here's my story. I've had so much trouble and expense with the Delco Moraine Treadle-vac booster and brake system on my 1958 I'm don't even want to add up my expenses.

Durning the restoration on my 1958 Cadillac I sent the brake booster to a well know brake booster rebuilder in Florida (since retired). The booster was rebuilt and returned to me.

It took a few more months before my Cadillac restoration was completed. On it's maiden voyage and fresh out of the shop the brakes started to act up. I was close and decided to limp home. Driving up my driveway the brake pedal dropped all the way to the floor and the car rolled right through the closed metal garage door. My wife was following me and thought I was having a stroke. $800 later I had a replacement garage door.

I had the car towed back to the restoration shop and the brake booster was again removed and sent back to Florida. The rebuilder reported back that he found some "debris" inside the booster that caused it to fail.

The booster was returned "repaired" and we again installed it. The brakes still did not feel right but I decided to live with it. 

With very few miles (under 10) I'm driving the car to my storage and when I applied the brakes the pedal would not return when depressed. I had to put my toe under the pedal and pull it up.

I gave up on that booster. On the advise of a Cadillac restoration parts supplier I purchased instead a Bendix brand booster. I was told both brands were used interchangeably on the 1958 Cadillac assembly line.

When the new rebuilt booster arrived to my surprise the rebuilders tag on it indicated it had been rebuilt by the same Florida company I had previously been using.

Once this booster was installed the brakes still did not feel right. When the pedal was depressed they first felt like non power brakes then with a little more pressure the braking came on fast, as if I wanted to make an emergency stop. There was no progressive smooth pedal feel.

By then I had enough and I searched the greater Phoenix, Arizona area for a brake expert to go over the whole system from top to bottom. I couldn't find anyone in the Phoenix area that specialized in these old systems. There are lots of shops that work on old brakes but no shop did just old style brake systems with major problems.

Searching the internet I found a company in Long Beach, California. I telephoned them and they assured me they would be able to fix my problem. I made an appointment and two weeks later I loaded my Cadillac into my trailer and took it to C.H. Topping & Co. ( chtopping.com) in Long Beach, California. They are exclusively a brake shop for speciality vehicles and have been in business since 1931.

They found so much wrong with my brake system I won't bore you with all the details. What I will report is that they took apart my "freshly rebuilt" Bendix booster and discovered that a small pin (the size of a very small finishing nail) was missing. This missing pin allows vacuum to progressively enter a chamber. Without the pin the vacuum is either full off or full on. The also found that a small air passage was being blocked off with excessive silicone RTV. Also inside the booster a piece of hydraulic hose had been installed where vacuum hose should have been used. Hydraulic hose kinks while vacuum hose does not kink internaly when bent into a tight loop that is required inside these boosters.   

C.H. Topping also replaced my brake shoes with asbestos shoes that they arched to the freshly resurfaced drums. The shop owner took me on a tour of their parts department showing me boxes and boxes of new brake shoes they acquired in the 50's and 60's before asbestos was banned. They also found that the rear wheel cylinders on my car were replaced at sometime and were undersized.

They rebuild plenty of these old boosters and have many in stock but years ago they stopped advertising a mail-in service because they said they spent more time on the phone with customers after the fact who run into problems trying to reinstall them correctly.

My car now has brakes that work perfectly.
1958 Series 62
1956 Eldorado Biarritz

Dave Shepherd

I had issues with the boostsr done in that Fla shop also, got 100 miles out of the rebuild before it went bad.  Now mind this is a customers car!!  Who is responsible if he has an accident!? Plus bleeding that system properly is a huge pita! It was not exclusive to Cadillac, so there should be no magic getting it fixed.

V63

The place in Fla sold out to white post. Just had a 57 bendix unit done at white post.  Interestingly I had 2 cores and married the pair into one. Then sent the worst one for rebuild.

I had an initial issue with the rear brakes dragging with my serviced unit. ...but it resolved itself and the assembly is working fine now?  I’m hesitant to swap with the new rebuilt unit all is working so well?

If it works...don’t fix it?

59-in-pieces

I'm glad there are 2 shops here in CA. i may be able to turn to in the future.

Why on this forum are we told don't share our bad experiences with poor performing vendors - it baffles me when we relate our own exclusive experiences.

However on the good side, I think you guys are talking about Ed Strain in Florida - now retired.
Great guy and super knowledgeable - too bad he retired although I often had doubts he would last to finish the job - NO DISRESPECT INTENDED, age catches up to us all.

My last 57 Eldo brake booster, I would not send to White..... ( bought Ed's business) which are not in Fl. but up North East some place, after talking to them for maybe 10 minutes, light on the confidence.

Have fun,
Steve B.
S. Butcher

Caddy Wizard

#6
I have tinkered with these booster units on earlier cars (54-56) and can confirm that they are sensitive and tricky to rebuild.  I have experience with the FL rebuilder -- some good, some not so much.  Have run into cars that have had the units rebuilt and then had no "feathering" feel -- the power boost came on suddenly and completely.  A buddy's 55 had intermittent issues even after having the booster/master done twice. Have not tried White Post for this service, but have had them do other brake jobs (masters and wheel cylinders) with excellent results.  Have not tried the two firms in CA.


When you get one of these working, they work great.  Until you reach that point, it is frustrating and scary.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

Dan Koser

Quote from: Dan Koser on April 09, 2018, 01:33:07 PM
I found a place in National City, CA that rebuilds these brake power units @ $450. Taking mine down today.

Steve Bush, (619)474-8906.
Am getting the hydro-vac unit back today and will report on its performance. The cost was actually $350. The $450 quote was for a treadle-vac unit.

Hoping for the best.

Roger Zimmermann

When I was restoring my '56 Biarritz, I went to vacation in Florida. I took the booster with me, as I intended to ship that Bendix treadle-vac unit to a rebuilder (don't remember his name, it's more than 20 years ago), but the friend we were visiting in Florida said: "don't ship it, I will let it restore by a company in Florida" he knows well (same company as discussed here? I don't know).
Some time after our return to Switzerland, I got the booster assembly. It was very good looking and I was happy. Some time later, I tried to bled it on the bench. For an unknown reason, even if the reservoir was full, I was unable to have a drop of brake fluid coming out the unit!
No wonder: when I disassembled it, it was full of blue silicone RTV...At the end, I did the work myself, which I should have done first without this intermezzo in Florida.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

Caddy Wizard

#9
Recently, I experienced a booster issue on a 54 Fleetwood. What it turned out to be was that sometimes the engine was providing good vacuum and sometimes the engine wasn't providing good vacuum to the booster. Without a strong vacuum source, the booster doesn't have the power it needs to provide power to the brakes. On the 54 that I was working on recently, the issue was a sticky (binding) throttle linkage and TV rod. It was keeping the throttle slightly open sometimes. But with the throttle slightly opened, the manifold does not have much vacuum. So the brakes sometimes felt like it didn't have power boost at all. Other times the brakes worked fine.

The moral of the story is that one should check for proper manifold vacuum before jumping to the conclusion that the booster has failed. In particular, you should look to see if there is anything that could be causing the throttle to be slightly open when the brakes aren't working correctly.


BTW, this is similar to the thought that before assuming that a HydraMatic isn't shifting right, one should carefully check the engine tune.  A faulty vacuum advance will often make a HM transmission seem like it is not shifting correctly.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

Dan Koser

Quote from: Art Gardner  CLC 23021 on April 13, 2018, 09:01:34 AM
Recently, I experienced a booster issue on a 54 Fleetwood. What it turned out to be was that sometimes the engine was providing good vacuum and sometimes the engine wasn't providing good vacuum to the booster. Without a strong vacuum source, the booster doesn't have the power it needs to provide power to the brakes. On the 54 that I was working on recently, the issue was a sticky (binding) throttle linkage and TV rod. It was keeping the throttle slightly open sometimes. But with the throttle slightly opened, the manifold does not have much vacuum. So the brakes sometimes felt like it didn't have power boost at all. Other times the brakes worked fine.

The moral of the story is that one should check for proper manifold vacuum before jumping to the conclusion that the booster has failed. In particular, you should look to see if there is anything that could be causing the throttle to be slightly open when the brakes aren't working correctly.


BTW, this is similar to the thought that before assuming that a HydraMatic isn't shifting right, one should carefully check the engine tune.  A faulty vacuum advance will often make a HM transmission seem like it is not shifting correctly.
Excellent point Art, and thanks for the reminder. Going to check that when I install the booster. Dan

Jon S

I had 2 Bendix treadle vacs rebuilt by the Florida company and never had any problems whatsoever.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

gary griffin

Mine was done by Ed Strain in his last year.  I installed it and had very poor brakes. Later I discovered a leak in my vacuum system caused by an after market gizmo which was installed to lubricate upper cylinders using vacuum from intake manifold. Car is in upholstery shop awaiting it's turn for upholstery repairs. When it comes home I will sort out the issues in my vacuum system.  My point is Vacuum system should be tested with a gauge to determine that it is adequate if brakes are weak.!!
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

gene harl

I have a 12 volt vacuum pump for my brakes, I  have low engine vacuum caused by the rv  cam I am running . it works well...
                   gene  22406

gene harl

Quote from: gene harl on April 14, 2018, 07:09:12 PM
I have a 12 volt vacuum pump for my brakes, I  have low engine vacuum caused by the rv  cam I am running . it works well...
                   gene  22406

gary griffin

Great idea Gene, I may do that if I can not find the problem.  Originally I was looking for a vacuum reservoir and not finding one I installed a small after market  one and wondered why it did not help at all. I did not know about the built in reservoir and assumed I was missing one causing the brake problem. I had  Ed Strain rebuild the unit. It was probably O K ?  Hoping to have good brakes when I check the vacuum system and fix it?
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Vsixteen

Hi Dan
How did the place in National City work out?
Thanks
Steve
1958 Coupe De Ville
1958 Sedan De Ville
1958 Convertible
1959 Convertible CLC Senior & AACA Senior

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

Old topic. OP hasn't been on the board in 2 years. He did give his phone #.
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

PKosnik

Brakes on my '57 Eldo were always mushy and i could never get a full bleed at the booster per the manual (still some bubbles at the top bleeder, no matter how long i bleed for).  So i decided to rebuild.  I purchased a kit and the tear-down went well.  I'm cleaning everything up now and i am wondering about refinishing the parts.  I did some searches for the correct refinishing/painting and found nothing.  The ones available already rebuilt don't seem to put much effort in the correct restoration/presentation regarding paint, i see the are usually offered painted all one color, either black or grey, presumably after assembly.  Anyone have any information on the correct finish that should be on any parts of the booster?  Thanks in advance!